# 111 PART 2 Understanding the Moses we miss when reading Exodus + Dr. Mallory Chappell

You make it sound like a disease. I think it spreads like a disease where if one person says something to another and we're spreading fear, and then when we're spreading fear, what ends up coming along.

That, even though I'm sure nobody that morning woke up with the intent to doubt God, but when we allow fear to rule the decision, we then doubt God.

Well, I think that there is like a basis for fear when there's Nephilim around. I thought Nephilim was like wiped out with the flood. Like, how did these Nephilim survive slash come back? Hello, hello.

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Welcome to Biblically Speaking. My brain is everywhere, and this is our continuation of Moses, so part two of last week where we spoke with Dr. Mallory Chapel, who is back in studio. I'm so grateful that you were able to come back in and give me yet another hour of your busy schedule for us to continue talking about Moses, because I got a lot of questions, and so we just needed more time to get into them.

If you do not know, we do have a part one to this, and that's where we jumped in earlier to Exodus. We talked about who is Moses, what's going on when he's introduced into the Bible, you know, how old is he, where is he, what year is it, the burning bush, the golden calf, and now we're going to pick it up with Show Me Your Glory in Exodus 33.

And we're going to go forward into a few other things, like when Miriam gets angry with Moses and then the spies. And so we hope to cover all of this in hopes of, I like what you said when we talked about King David dethroning him, and not in a way where we don't like Moses, but in a way where we take him off this pedestal of he's perfect and that's why God chose him, rather who is Moses actually as a person and what it would have been like to interact with him, given if we were there at that time.

Moses Asks for God's Presence and Glory

So, jumping right back in, let's talk about Show Me Your Glory, which is Exodus 33, I'll read the verses 12 and 17. All right, Moses said to the Lord, you have been telling me, lead these people, but you have not let me know whom you will send with me.

Then Moses said to him, am I reading this correctly? Then Moses said to him, if your presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. How will anyone know what you are, oh my gosh, I like can't read today.

How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people in the face of the earth? So, I feel like this is kind of a callback to the last episode.

The first episode where we were talking about Moses, he was like, yeah, I think you got the wrong guy. And he's saying, take my brother Aaron, but here he's saying, I'm not going to go unless you go. Do you think this is just because they now know each other, they trust each other.

He knows this God and he trusts him and he's like, I win when I'm with you.

Yeah, kind of. I also think we're seeing growth in Moses, which makes sense for anyone who's walking in a calling. When you first get it, I think a natural first feeling is fear. Like you want me to do what?

And that's what we see in Moses. He's like, you want me to go and do what? Even though objectively he was a good person for that job. But then as he's spending time with the Lord and as he's walking with him and as he's seeing his power and his love and his dependability and he's seeing these things there.

This is what I think in the modern church we call, he's building a relationship with him. We're seeing that work down. We're seeing that walk down. So Moses is like, you're telling me to do this, but I need you there.

Like I need you to do this.

So I think we're seeing growth. Absolutely. And I think that does, you know, come with that trust and, you know, he is growing in his faith walk. You know, there's what, how many other gods that now he trusts this God above all else.

I think one thing that stands out to me is if your presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. Is that different from what the God that we've been interacting with so far?

With the idea, I don't know if we can definitively say that Moses is seeing, it has a different idea of presence. I would say that, so in the ancient world, so we know that God is omnipresent, right? We know that.

We know that. I don't know that there's anything that we can point to at this point in how God's revealing himself that Moses would have known that. So I think what we're seeing here is a little bit into Moses's understanding of God saying, okay, no, I want your presence.

I want you with me, not just me worshiping you, you somewhere off doing your own thing. No, I want you here with me, walking with me all the time. So it's the thing that we, we have, we, I think take for granted that we have the Holy Spirit here with us all the time, but they didn't have that.

So it's kind of different. That's so interesting to think that like, what that would have been like of like, if God is not paying attention to me, if his presence is not focused on me, then I don't kind of like have that covering.

Whereas like today we still have it because we have the Holy Spirit.

Yeah, I do. I think it's something we take for granted that, that we know we can pray at any time. We know that God is with us at any time. And I'm not in any way saying that Yahweh wasn't that with them, but just from Moses's point of view, that's not how they would have viewed the divine at that time.

Because when the divine's not interacting with you, the divine's off doing something else.

And that was just like, the way that they interacted with gods at that time of like, very human-like.

Very human-like. Very human-like. It reminds me, have you seen the Odyssey? Yeah. Okay. So the new Odyssey that just came out, every time Athena pops in, right, she pops in and she's having these intimate conversations with Odysseus, which I think that was done really well.

And what that does is it portrays this idea of like, you know Athena's there, but like, she wasn't interacting with Odysseus, except in those instances. And so it's like attention diverted back and forth.

So I think that's actually kind of a really good picture of what could have been expected, or the mentality at least. Yeah. And so here we have Moses saying, no, no, I want your presence.

I want you here. Which is, just shows like how great our God really is because like this omnipresence isn't a thing that like Greek mythology, Roman pantheons, they didn't get that benefit. They had that human-like God that had single-minded attention spans.

Yeah, I love the comparisons to the Odyssey because it truly is like, that's how people thought about God. It's like, that's how people worshipped and that's how small those gods were. Yes. It's like you had to feed them.

You had to sacrifice to them.

It's like, what is a God that you have to feed? Exactly. It's a great question. Not one I think they would have asked, but a great question, especially for us looking back.

Oh, I would have been beheaded back then asking those questions. Probably me too. Okay. So his presence is something that he needs to distinguish, you know, ask specifically for, you know, his attendance here.

And then Moses is asking, what else will distinguish me and your people? Is he basically having fear that, like, this is where that, like the set-apartness, the Israelites are pulled out of the previous world that they lived in.

Is he essentially saying like, hey, how will they know that we're not one of them anymore?

Maybe it, I kind of go back and forth in, and because I think the text kind of goes back and forth in what, because we see this kind of what will distinguish us, you know, this is your reputation, God, these are your people.

And so we kind of go back and forth a little bit in the text. And so I think, you know, we can't rule that out. But I think also what's going on here is this idea that, you know, once they've aligned with Yahweh, that marks them as his people, like they are marked as his.

And so it's almost like a, like a reputation thing for the people and for the God, because in the ancient world, the divine pantheons were warring. So when you go to war, if you lose your battle, it's not just you who loses, it's your God who loses.

So, yeah, so it's this weird, we see that, we see that when we get into the historical books. It's very personal. So we see that in the historical books when we get in further into the Old Testament, but it's this idea that the divine is warring while the humans are warring.

And so it's not just your loss, it's their loss. It's not just your power, it's their power. And so I think we see a little bit of that here with this idea of, you know, associating what's going to distinguish us, what's going to make us yours.

How are the nations going to know that we're yours? So I think there's a little bit of that going on too.

Okay. So there's this, like, I feel like in a really silly way, this is Moses being like, Hey God, we're best friends, right? Like you're never going to leave my side. And people know that we're best friends and like, how will they know that we're best friends?

And how is that important going into the next verse where he basically, Moses is like, now show me your glory. Like, it's like, now pick your promise. No, I think it's really important.

What do you mean? Like how? Okay. So I think what we see here with Moses is a boldness that we haven't seen. So we see, it's just the juxtaposition of how he was at the burning bush to now he's like, no, I want your presence.

And also, by the way, I don't just want your presence. I want to see more of you. So it's like this total opposite. And I think we're seeing growth here. We're seeing relationship. And as Christians, we should have that too, right?

We should look back, you know, five, 10 years ago and speak to God more boldly now, pray to him more boldly, love him more deeply now than we did then. And I think we're seeing that almost in real time as the story develops.

Absolutely.

I think, you know, I know that this is focused on Moses, but like reading it in 2026 is so strange because it's like, okay, Moses said, you know, this is verses 18, 23 in chapter 33. Then Moses said, now show me your glory.

And the Lord said, I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you. And I will proclaim my name, the Lord in your presence. But he said, you cannot see my face for no one may see me and live. When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by.

And then I will remove my hand and you will see my back. But my face may not be seen. I know there's probably like translation and context, but like that is such a silly image in my head of God being like, I'm going to cover your eyes.

I'm going to scurry past you. You may see my back, but you will not see my face. And it's like, what is going on, God? Like what are you hiding?

No, you're right. If you step back from it. And I think as a side note in the church, you know, the big larger church, I think we're afraid to read the text and go, wow, that sounds silly. It almost sounds disrespectful, but it's not like we're asking questions like that's not weird.

Obviously not disrespecting God here, but it is one of those things where it's like, I like, God, I know you have an answer for this, but like, I know there's also like, you can't see my face. I'm God.

Like, if you see my face, you'll die. Like, that makes sense. You're God. But like, why don't you just say like, hard stop? No. Like, what about this back business? Right.

No, you're right. No. And asking questions of this, it's so good because it is silly. I mean, I agree with you. It sounds like if you're picturing in your head, in my head, it's a VeggieTales episode and I'm like, that would not sell.

That would not sell as a VeggieTales episode, but no, really, I think what's going on here, you know, obviously like he says, you know, put his hand over, you know, God doesn't have hands, right? God, I mean, he could if he wanted, but like, so we're using human terms to describe a being that is so far above us.

Right. So there's that element here. You know, I would say you could say the same thing. Like God doesn't necessarily have a back, although if God wanted to have a human form, like he could, obviously Jesus came as a human, right?

So there's definitely this idea of using human terms to describe something. I think what's really being described here is just the difference between God and humans. Like I am so much more powerful and so much more like perfect.

You're not, you, you can't, you cannot be in the presence of God because of how different we are. And it's important because this comes after we get the law, which is their covenant. And it's like, you know, you've made this covenant with God to be his people, but even though you're his people, he's still God and we still have a long way to go and we're not sin free.

We're never going to be sin free, not on this earth. And so there's still this disparity between humankind and between God. And so it's God saying, okay, I'm going to give you what you want. You want more of me, but I'm going to do it in a way that maintains the fact that he's God and Moses is human and also protects him.

I think that's so well said. And I think, I mean, maybe this is my interpretation, but he says, I'll show you my goodness, which like is that God being like, that's not all of me, but there's a part of me that I'll let you see, which I'm going to call goodness.

I think, I think so. Yeah. Cause we know, we know God is so many things, right? We know God is so many things. God is vengeful. God is wrathful. God is angry. We know these things, but, and out of all of the things that God has been over the journey through the wilderness up until this point, then into the wilderness, you know, God's going to be more than just exhibiting his goodness.

But in this moment when Moses is asking for more, that's what he gives. Yeah.

Yeah. And this is, I mean, I don't want to get ahead of myself, but this is the part where, when he comes down from Mount Sinai, his face is glowing. And I think it was like the transfiguration. I had a conversation with a scholar about, and it was like, that is also, you know, their faces were glowing after the transfiguration.

And that's when the apostles were like, well, should I look away? Like, should I not be seeing this? And it's like, that's the impact of God on you is like, his light reflects onto you. Yeah. That's, that's crazy.

Okay. I, um, yeah, it is interesting. I think that the way that God reveals himself, because even with Elijah, he does something that's so similar, you know, later in the Old Testament of like, I will pass by and I won't be in the fire and I won't be in the rain or the earthquake, but I'll be coming in a gentle breeze.

And that's just, it's so interesting to me, like how God chooses to reveal himself. It's always in this like very grandiose, but secretive way.

And also I think is, I think it makes sense if we look at salvific history, like chronologically, you know, we get these kind of more hidden interactions with God throughout the Old Testament. And then we get Jesus in the New Testament.

And so it fits along that path of how God is continually, progressively revealing things to us as it's time. And so I think that there's probably something to that too, where, you know, it's not time.

Jesus is God, he's going to be here, he's, they're going to see him, but not right now. Yeah.

That timing, that timing is so important. And it's almost this like teaser of like, you're going to get these parts of me, but you'll get the version that you can see all of, which is Jesus in a few. Okay.

Miriam and Aaron Challenge Moses' Authority

Now we're going to talk about Miriam and Aaron, his sister and his brother, hosing Moses. This is going to be numbers. So we're going to chat, we're going to jump entirely into a new chapter. Numbers chapter 12, right from the beginning, one through three, Miriam and Aaron began to talk against Moses because of his Cushite wife, for he had married a Cushite.

Has the Lord spoken only through Moses, they asked? Hasn't he also spoken through us? And the Lord heard this. Now, Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth. What the heck?

Like every, like, it's like three separate things are happening in this verse.

Yes. Yes. It's like, it's like three, like they don't flow. They don't seem like they'd have to go together. And I feel like we're missing something as the reader.

Let's go one by one. First off, thought he married Zipporah, who's the Cushite wife. Is this like their soft launching, like, and they have many wives, you know, like maybe.

Maybe, maybe it could be that it is referring to Zipporah and it's just a different way. They're talking about her. It could be that he has another wife. It could be that it's a different textual tradition that his wife was described this way in one and this way in another.

And then when we're pulling it together, that they're not changing it, just pulling it together. It could be any of those don't really know.

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Does it matter? I don't think so. Okay. I don't think so. Just like as a personal thing, because you know this, when does it matter that people have multiple wives? Because I feel like the Bible is sometimes like horrible, and the other times it's like, any, I'd like 10 wives.

Yeah, I think you're right.

I think it matters. Well, it depends. Okay. It depends. When did it matter then or when does it matter for us? I think...

I think like at the Bible, like when does it matter in the Bible? Because sometimes the Bible frames it as wrong and sometimes it doesn't.

I think it depends on the situation. So for Abraham and Sarah and Hagar, I think it's framed as, this was not a good idea. And I think it's framed that way because of the covenant that God made with Abraham.

And I think it has less to do with two wives and more to do with, this wasn't the plan. I think that's more the issue. But then we get something like, we get something like Jacob, and there's no commentary at all about the fact that he has multiple wives.

And I think it just depends on almost, as far as how the text frames it, I think it just depends on how polygamy factors into the overarching story. I think that's more what it is. So here for this one, whether it's another wife or whether it's not, doesn't really impact the story because if Moses had multiple wives, that wouldn't really have been that scandalous.

A lot of people did. So it wouldn't have been any worse, quote unquote, if it had said, Miriam and Aaron began talking about Moses when he took another wife. That wouldn't have been a huge deal.

We got to stay focused on what we got to stay focused on versus playing God about what we think was right and wrong. Yeah. That makes sense. Okay. So he takes a wife and whether or not it's Zipporah, we just don't know.

We don't know. Okay. Don't know. Is Kishite kind of like Canaanite where it's a group of people they don't like?

I think it has more to do with the fact that Israel at this point was supposed to remain within Israel. They were supposed to marry from within Israel. They just weren't supposed to marry out. I didn't come across any, I haven't come across any where it's like that particular group was worse or something.

It's more to do with like, we're not supposed to marry outside of Israel. Why are you?

So do they use that then to say the next thing, which is like, okay, brother is marrying people he shouldn't and God is speaking through him. I feel like I haven't married outside of this group and God surely has spoken through me.

Do you think like, are they just like power grabbing here? Is this like the enemy getting in between them? Like what do you think is happening?

I do. I think honestly when I read it and kind of when you read through it and you look at that, like we said, the progression, it just doesn't seem to flow. Like we go from he married this lady to this almost jealousy to then all of a sudden something else.

It seems almost like they're using this as justification for their jealousy or for the fact that they're upset about something. It's almost like we already have a problem. Now let's go back and find a reason why to justify it for ourselves as opposed to actually starting with a problem because like people did marry outside of Israel.

I mean, they weren't really supposed to, but it did happen because people can graft in. So totally. Yeah. It seems more like looking for justification for something that was already a problem.

And it seems like this is one of those like, they are not trusting God fully. Moments of like God chose Moses and yet they're kind of, well, because it just says like, and the Lord heard this, like, you know, the Bible doesn't waste papyrus, you know, there's a point there.

And also like they were totally using Aaron and Miriam. Like was this, like Aaron was the head Levite, right?

This is why it, this is why it reads jealousy. Because a lot of times when, I mean, think about it now, when we have some, when you have someone who has a calling or has a position or has a platform and they have it, but then they look at someone else and they go, well, they have something that I don't have and everyone else is like, but you do have it.

It's just different. It's, you know, it's kind of, it's reading those kinds of vibes where, cause you're right. If we look at it objectively, they both did have a platform. They did. They did have those responsibilities.

They did have those positions. And so it doesn't make sense that they would be looking over there unless there's something else, some kind of desire for more desire for that or jealousy or something. Totally.

Is it true? Like, cause this is where the third line becomes hilarious is who wrote this book of numbers? Because isn't it like, allegedly, did it Moses write this? So it's funny that Moses was like, and then they were jealous.

And do you know what? That Moses guy was so humble. Like I didn't know Moses like writing it. I mean, maybe.

So as far as who wrote the book of numbers, there's, there are different schools of thought. One is that it is traditionally thought to be Moses. That's more on the traditional or like, you're going to get that more like a church level study Bible level.

When you get into the more technical, it's, it's generally thought that it's actually compiled from different sources and editors later actually compiled everything. And so this very well could be an editor's comment, like a, Hey, by the way, we all know that Moses was very humble, kind of like a, a narrator's like a, almost like a breaking the fourth wall kind of a thing.

Or it's, or it's Moses saying that he's humble either way. It could be Moses saying he's humble.

Is there like a language thing? Cause we're not even talking about humility. Like what was the point of even saying this here? You know, that's really interesting.

So I actually, I looked into the word humble because it is, it's kind of funky. The idea of humble doesn't necessarily go with the previous two verses and it really just, it means not arrogant, not arrogant.

It means not arrogant, not prideful. And it, it means just like what it sounds like. So I'm thinking if we're taking this, cause we're going in the flow of the text, right, whether it's Moses, who's writing it, whether it's editors who are compiling it, you know, this is the order in which God wanted it.

So that's the order we take it. So we have, let's see, we have, has the Lord spoken only through Moses? They asked, hasn't he also spoken through us? And the Lord heard this. Now Moses was a very humble man.

So in that order, it's almost like whoever is saying this is saying, well, they're looking at Moses, kind of side-eyeing Moses, when they really shouldn't be, because he's humble. So I think it's almost highlighting that, which is foreshadowing that Miriam and Aaron are off base here with what is getting ready to happen with what they're saying.

Dun-dun-dun-dun-dun. So what happens next is, we'll read Numbers chapter 12, verses four through eight. At once, the Lord said to Moses, Aaron, and Miriam, come out to the tent and meeting all three of you.

When there's a prophet among you, I, the Lord, reveal myself to them in visions. I speak to them in dreams, but this is not true of my servant, Moses. He is faithful in all my house. With him, I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles.

He sees the form of the Lord. So, God kind of pulls all three kids out and he's like, listen, I talked to a lot of prophets here. Moses isn't the only one I talked to, but Moses, I do speak to very specially that I don't speak to, like, do you feel like that was him going to the, like siblings and being like, I speak to all of you.

Moses just gets a different way. Yeah. Yeah, it does.

Cause, cause that's what he's saying. He's like, I speak in this way. I speak in this way. I speak in this way, but guys, I do speak to Moses this way. So, so in one, one hand he's saying, no, I speak to everybody.

Stop it. On the other hand, Moses is different. So it's loving, I think, yet firm. Like I do speak to everybody, but guys, I do actually speak to Moses differently because he does have a different position than everybody else.

He is the mediator and that is different.

I think it is interesting that he says, when I speak to him face to face, does he?

Moses definitely goes before the Lord in a way that others do not. Yeah.

I thought it was like face to back, you know, we just like went over the lake.

Yeah. I think when, when we see things like face to face, especially in this, it's, it's highlighting a different level of intimacy that he has in communication with Yahweh compared to others.

Totally. Oh man. Imagine just being like, getting a talking to from God. This is like the part of the Bible that I think frustrates myself, but also a lot of other Christians, when I see things online and they're like, how do I hear from God, it's like, how do I hear God this way, where he's like so clearly having a conversation with them.

And it's like today in 2026, how do I get that? And you knowing the Bible, do you think that's a big ask? Cause obviously like the Lord can speak to us in so many ways and the Lord can appear in my room.

The Lord can appear to me in dreams and like I've had visions and I have those inklings that like feel like messages. But is it too big to ask for an Old Testament version of God to show up and talk to me?

Not too big. Nothing's too big. No, no ask is too big for our God. No, I mean, not too big. I would say though, if somebody is asking that, don't get discouraged if the answer is no.

Oh, like if God does this and he's like to you, I will not speak to face to face. Yeah.

Don't get discouraged because again, we have the Holy Spirit and this is not something, you know, we've had the full revelation of Jesus. We have the full scriptures. Moses at this time didn't have that.

He didn't have the scriptures. He didn't have the constant companion of the Holy Spirit indwelling. And so it's almost like comparing apples to oranges as far as the way that we're experiencing God. And so Moses, I, I would think he would want what we have because he could read and, you know, have that indwelling at any point if he could, I think that's something that he, that they would want.

And then we're looking back and going, well, we have all of this, but we also want that. So obviously not too big of an ask. Our God is amazing. Our God is powerful. Our God can do it. And he does, you mentioned, you know, he does appear to people in dreams and visions.

He does. I know people who have audibly heard the voice of God. I have not, I wish I could, but also I hear God in other ways. And so, you know, God speaks to us individually. And I think that's just another facet of who he is.

He speaks to us at this time. He speaks to us individually, how we need to hear it. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. I, um, okay, let's keep going. So we're still in Numbers chapter 12, going forward. The anger of the Lord burned against them and then he left them. When the cloud lifted from above the tent, Miriam's skin was leprous.

It became white as snow. So Aaron said to Moses, please, my Lord, I ask you not to hold against us the sin we have so foolishly committed. So Moses cried out to the Lord, please God heal her. How like, this is, I love Old Testament God because he like, it is a horror story when God's wrath comes out.

Like, I think there's like a whole thing in either Numbers or Deuteronomy, like all the things, like he will wrath against people that don't follow the commandments of the Lord. And it's the worst things you could ever possibly think of.

Like God is so tuned into the discomforts of the human experience that it's like, Oh, I'm not gonna like make your day bad. I'm going to ruin your future. Like if you in a second had leprosy and your skin was white as snow, I don't even know what leprosy looks like, but for some reason I imagine like sores, not white, but like that's, that's a skin condition.