Pat Abendroth and the Ascension

One welcome to don't compromise radio ministry. I feel like I'm a tech wizard. Maybe spoken too soon, but I couldn't get this mixer to work on this Rodecaster Pro 2 and Chad helped me it helped me to the extent that now I have live.

I'd hate to get the Avondroth brothers involved. Pat Avondroth. Welcome back to no compromise radio. Thanks Mike Avondroth because remember as as they say regarding Gandalf because wizards after all are wizards.

Well, I don't know how long it's been since I've had you on the show probably since I got this. You know, I couldn't figure out this problem last time either. So I'm glad to have you back on the show.

Pat Avondroth pastor of Omaha Bible Church Co-host of the Pactam and the wizard behind the Pactam conference. I just had someone stay at my home path the last few days and I met him pastor Cisco PCA pastor in Pennsylvania.

I met him at the conference. And so look at how far this net goes. Absolutely amazing I think and maybe the last time we recorded it may have been about one year ago because I was at your place because we were going to the evangelical Theological Society in Boston.

How about that one year ago? Oh, that's right and praise the Lord I feel way better than I did then that was that was a that was a rough time period in my life. But you were always the encouraging brother.

So I'm glad for that and you're going to ETS this year again, right? Denver this year. So sorry, you're not gonna be there. Sorry, I'm not gonna be at the Pactam next year. Tell us who's speaking for the best conference in the world next year, October.

Yeah, thanks for all for all the promo because you even recorded about it so 2027 October 1st and 2nd Tom Hicks. Michael back. JD Fesco. I'm gonna speak as well and Harrison Perkins. Nice nice. Well Old mystery of sanctification.

Oh perfect, and I love it that the truly reformed. Want to get in on what you're doing. But it's what what you're doing and and they you know to be in the cool club now. You have to go to a Bible Church of all things.

Go ahead. No, it's just a bummer that you're not gonna be there people are already already grumbling and complaining. So we better commit to 2028 I'm preaching through Luke 15 and these Pharisees and scribes are grumbling and I think it's just a Reverb back to numbers chapters 11 and 12 and others who are they grumble?

So we don't want to do what the Israelites did in the wilderness and grumbled. You can listen to Pat Abendroth and maybe Mike will be back. You know what Pat if it blows up in terms of numbers. Then maybe I don't go back in.

It's like when people say, you know, you know your brother's funnier than you are and I say he's nine years older. Give me some time see yeah, but you're the better scholar speaking of which I wanted to have you on the show today to talk about your new book the Ascension and your subtitle is a forgotten gospel Doctrine now, come on Pat.

Everything's a gospel doctrine now, right how many carbs we eat. TV shows we listen to Fowda when we watch is that a gospel issue when we watch Fowda on Netflix? Did you gonna name your next child Doron.

The Ascension as a Forgotten Gospel Doctrine

No, I I did say to Molly the next dog probably is gonna be named Sauda. Oh, okay. That's good. That's it. That's it. That's perfect. So in all seriousness, the book is out it's probably been out in about a month or so published by the Pactam and I love the idea of the topic.

It is a forgotten doctrine. That is we don't think about it very often and I wanted to have you on today and just chat about it. Probably some other interviews. It was earlier on with the release. How's it being received?

Let's start off there. How's this book being received and this kind of a recovery of this doctrine being received? So far so good as far as what I what I see on Amazon reviews and book sales, so that's positive.

Probably never done so many interviews like this. So I'm thankful for that. Thankful that my brother Mike finally has had me on so We're winning. The only negative has been we can talk about this later but I think one of the reasons we don't we've not been talking about it is because of Dispensationalism because it's all about the future millennial kingdom.

So some dispensationals haven't been too happy. But otherwise so far so good. And I think it is a gospel doctrine because if gospel means good news regarding person and work of Christ. Obviously, it's the good news about who Jesus is he is the ascended King as the ultimate prophet priest and King and He's currently all of those things and he is in his in his session.

Hebrews and the Ascended Forerunner

And we wouldn't have salvation apart from from that. As I was reading the book Pat it dawned on me and you know how I kind of like, you know, hyperbole exaggeration trick questions. We talk about the finished work of Jesus often.

Can we talk about his unfinished work? Right, you like to poke the bear. It's kind of interesting to think yeah. If you ask someone is the work of Jesus finished we hope they say yes because they've read Hebrews.

But then we want them to read Hebrews again the ascension centric book and it's like oh his earthly work is done. But now he's always living to make intercession for his people. So good provoke good provoking their my cave and drugs.

Well, I have one of the things underlined in your book. I underlined many and circled many page 63 65 excuse me since I have found Hebrews to be Ascension centric to coin a word we'll go there due to we won't go to there due to time and so I Loved it that you were talking about ascension centric.

And so I was thinking hey Pat good job coining that new word ascension Centric, let's tie these two things together dispensationalism. Ascension Hebrews a Karl Truman once told me he said it's hard to read the book of Hebrews and remain a dispensationalist.

What what do you mean by that and how can we relate it to the ascension. I Think for a long time I heard things like that and I I just thought I don't get it. And then I preached through Hebrews and I think I got it it's like it does you in because You know required for dispensationalism.

You have to have a rebuilt temple and animal sacrifices and a reinstituted priesthood. And you read Hebrews and you think you know, may it never be this we don't go backward. It's progressive revelation not regressive and So I'm with him.

With him on that as far as you know Hebrews and being ascension centric. And it's so it's so amazing and positive not to shift gears away from dispensationalism. Where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf Hebrews 620.

Christ's Ascension as Coronation and Reign

It's just so cool and thought-provoking. He went he's gone there for us as our forerunner. It doesn't get much better than that. So when you say in your preface your preface This this will help you see that the Ascension is far more than Jesus going up to heaven.

Riff a little bit on that. I mean we do know he ascended in heaven. It's of course in creeds but Tell us why you said it's more than going up to heaven and and here's this coronation kind of language.

Yep, so let's not have it be less than right it is going up acts one and two or key texts. But it's it's this amazing historic theological reality. It's just loaded you know, Jesus is the ultimate and successful prophet priest and King the true and better Adam and He ascends to you know, his universal heavenly throne.

And why does he do that? It's because he inaugurates his kingdom. He I mean this is. It all begins it's all. The grand reality of it all so it's yes going up. But if you think in terms of a king or a queen when they ascend to their throne.

They're they're being installed there. They're they're going there to rule and reign and so that's how it is with Jesus so we'd say it's it's theologically loaded with significance and Theology is very practical and I loved it that you put in the book Practical implications right where as pastors we do that.

We we know that the Bible is relevant God is relevant sin is relevant. Heaven's relevant. The Ascension is relevant. But then we try to show our people why it's relevant. Are we show them the relevancy of the scripture?

I know you put that in the book. Tell us tell us why the Ascension is important to us as people that need assurance, right? That was a great section in the book assurance. Bolstering doctrine. Yes. Yes.

Assurance through Christ's Intercession

So it may be even before we get to assurance even the fact, you know, let's just address Christian worry. We worry all the time. We worry too much and we're not supposed to well if Jesus is has ascended and he is Seated and he's in his session as the ultimate sovereign God man.

Well Pat and Mike don't need to worry as much and we shouldn't worry at all, but it at least helps us. Oh, he's sovereign. I don't like the way the election turned out. But ultimately I don't have to worry because he's been installed On Mount Zion Acts chapter 2 or excuse me.

Psalm chapter 2 so practical there let's worry less because of the Ascension and let's have assurance because He always lives right as our mediator to make intercession on our behalf. We have a perfect priest in Omaha, Nebraska.

I love to say to be provocative and all of you need a priest and they all think Roman Catholic is we're in Omaha and You know, all of you need a perfect priest. His name is Jesus and he's ascended as our priest.

So talk about assurance. I mean, it couldn't be more assuring that he's there for us. So he's in heaven for us. He broke heaven open for us. He's living there for us. It's amazing. So practical sovereignty.

Practical assurance and Then Mike it might be fun to talk a little bit about how practical it makes once you understand the Ascension. How practical it is as far as it changes the way you read the whole Bible.

Okay, let's get there. But before that We talked yesterday via text about our mother was born November 8th, I think 1938. Yeah, and so she would have been 88 years old and she prayed for us a lot. I've met people that have said to me I pray for you every day and then they've since died and So some of these prayer warrior ladies, especially that I know in my life and in your life a righteous you know effective prayer of a righteous woman accomplishes much as well and We've lost our prayer warriors many of them.

We lost our mom praying for us. But isn't it great to think the Lord Jesus prays for us? And I think he gets his prayers answered even more than our mother did. So Into that point it's become a favorite text, you know first John to basically says don't sin, you know, dear Christian don't sin.

We know it's not good for you. It's not good for your testimony. It's not good for other people don't sin. But then it does say but if you do we have an advocate with Stressing because we're talking about the Ascension with the Father Jesus Christ the Righteous.

So not only is he praying for us interceding? He's with God for us and he's our perfectly obedient representative saying I Lived and died and was raised and ascended for for him. So that's pretty cool.

Well, the practical nature I think continues and I'd like to know I'll put you on the spot. This would be something very practical. I know you have probably a special resurrection Sunday Easter message.

You probably have one right before Christmas about the Incarnation. Are we Pat and Mike going to start celebrating Ascension Day a little bit more around here. Oh I've actually had a church member, you know, quote-unquote confront me about this like, you know Insisting that we started having this and I don't know I'm slow.

I'm slow to change. But I It's pretty easy to talk about the Ascension even when you're talking about the resurrection on resurrection Sunday. So if nothing else we're gonna we're gonna tackle it there.

I think that's wise right? How many how many special days do we have on our calendar 52 right there isn't Savior who's ascended? Yes. Yes, I Tend to go that route. But I at least thought about it and in all seriousness I in writing the book I I don't want I want people to see it and and never Be able to unsee it.

But I don't want us to become like legalistic kind of cage stage bullies. You know upset anytime somebody doesn't say the a word the Ascension word. So life death resurrection and Ascension better have all of those.

But the Apostle Paul, you know, he's not compromising when he says to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ in him crucified. Because one assumes the other assumes the other assumes the other but let's at least Reintroduce it into the conversation into the emphasis because it really is vital.

Confessing the Ascension and Celebrating Christ's Reign

Pat you and I have Had kind of a recovery in our own lives when it comes to confessions and creeds and the importance of these historical documents and catechisms. And I think it's fair to say when you're dealing in the book with first Timothy chapter 3 verse 16 That it is a confession.

It's a common confession. And it's a confession that has an exclamation point at the end of it. Tell us what that exclamation point is and why you stress that in the book. At the end of 316 you mentioned first Timothy 316 taken up in glory.

So that's something that Christians were confessing they were all agreeing to Before they had a New Testament. So think of the church at Ephesus and the Apostle Paul is reminding them what they already know from from the incarnation all the way through to the Ascension Christians had certain things they memorized so they could at least remember.

Okay, what are the super important doctrines? That I can remember and if I remember these I can fill in the spaces in between and Remember just why Jesus is so so amazing and important. So the Ascension is included.

So we want to reintroduce that great doctrine that all Christians used to confess and maybe today we don't do so. Do so so so well talking to Pat Abendroth today on no compromise radio I encourage you to go to the Pactam conference listen to the Pactam Podcast with Mike Grimes and Pat Abendroth a great podcast.

I think you'll be very encouraged. I like Pat when you quote the men in the book. I don't think you quoted a lady you quote the men and they are great quotes like pungent perfect quotes and Here's a here's part of a quote you have in your book R .C. Sproul the Ascension of Jesus was the supreme political event of world history.

The Ascension as a Political and Missional Reality

Maybe we should start making the Ascension great again, even when we talk about politics. What say ye? In the sheet, it's true. So. And you think of Psalm 2, right? So Psalm 2 would would be political.

I'm very much so as far as the kings of the earth. The ultimate king as for me. I have set my king on Zion my holy hill. The holy hill is the ascended hill and here he is according to acts for it's fulfilled.

Indeed, he is the king and he's on the ascended holy hill. It matters it matters for today's elections the ultimate political event in all of human history. RC man. RC. You Try to encourage people in the book you give them Good ways to worship.

How about. Not just worry, but how about encouragement when it comes to unsaved loved ones people out on the missions field in evangelism. How is the Ascension helpful in that area? Now you have me drawing a blank.

How does it matter for missions? How do we do this? I'm just thinking about lost. What about the Ascended Jesus and lost people. Do those relate at all. I'm you keep talking because I'm trying to think through the issues well I'm just thinking.

Well, maybe that'll be your appendix right there you go, I'm just I'm just thinking about. Here's this great son of man and Daniel 7 the Messiah that you talked about in Psalm 2 and Psalm 110 this bodily Ascension promise return.

Jesus keeps his promises we can say Lord, please save. You have the power you have the right you have the authority. You were exalted above every power we can trust you and help my loved one get saved.

That's I was just after that. It was just a okay. It wasn't a curveball. And you bought me enough time to go well if you think about Acts chapter 1 and Acts chapter 2 and Peter's great gospel sermon. Right.

It's not don't put your trust in David or your forefathers or anyone else. There's only one who is this one and his name is Jesus. So kiss the Sun right. Psalm chapter 2 He is the ultimate prophet priest and king and you pay homage to him and it's the one and only way to escape his His second coming wrath.

So thanks. Thanks for a little time. See you like a typical Abendroth. We just talk long enough and we'll figure. Now the first Timothy 316 passage Psalm 2 Psalm 110 we've touched on some of those. How about in one of the great assurance chapters of the Bible one of the great Praises of the Bible in Romans chapter 8.

The Ascension Across Scripture and the Assurance of God's People

Anything in there about what Jesus is doing as the Ascended One in terms of making intercession. It's definitely there in Romans chapter 8 and in Romans chapter 8, I mean nothing gets a greater context.

It's for a good reason that that nothing can separate us from the love of God. It's in Christ Jesus that there's no therefore now no condemnation and the Apostle Paul definitely includes inner Intercession and it's from the Ascended Christ.

So what happens Mike is you start to see it everywhere? I'm just waiting for you to quote Bible passages. I'm not even familiar with and I'm like, oh, yep. There's a way to get the Ascension there. But what one when I am familiar with it's also assurance tied in a certain way and that would be that that psalm that says who shall ascend the hill of the Lord psalm 24 and.

And then it answers and our it's then it says and who shall stand in his holy place. Goes on to say it's only one with a pure heart only one with clean hands. And if you're honest with yourself, you think well I guess I can't go there in the unique presence of God only that one may come in and.

Then we're told it's the king of glory. Jesus is the one with the pure heart and clean hands and he ascends and he ascends on behalf of his people. And now I can read the Psalms better. Now I can read the Old Testament better now it all makes sense because it's not David.

It's not Solomon. It wasn't Adam. It's got to be it's got to be the one who earns the right to break heaven open for his people pure heart and clean hands. Love it. You've got the quote in the back of the book by Christopher love Christ.

Not only died for us, but went to heaven for us and isn't that? The truth about the Lord Jesus what he did was for others, right? He came. You know to do his father's will to do things for us for others.

He went to heaven. For us, I love that truth Pat. Any any kind of negative? Comments besides you said something about dispensationalist. And the reason why I asked that it's like it's such a Catholic doctrine a universal doctrine as you say in your book.

It's like how could there be any pushback right? How could how could people not love the resurrection? How could they not love the Ascension heavy? Have you seen any kind of weirdos out there? I guess maybe you're you're Stephen Furtick quote there that he was a cocaine like rant or something.

Has he read it yet? I don't think so. I think Joel Stenhouse because I know he's he's promoted your book. So he's promoted this book as well. When you met Joel Osteen you maybe should have asked him about the Ascension that would have been pretty benign.

I Think people are for the Ascension. They're just by and large. We're we're theologically ignorant and so we tend to think the Bible's, you know. All about how to live your life and how to be a better parent and certainly where the Bible talks about things like parenting.

It's true. But the main focus of the Bible as we would agree with each other as brothers and as brothers in Christ. It's about Christ. It's about redemption. It's about being reconciled to God and living in light of that and so I think we just don't think about things like the Ascension and so Trying to recover it for that reason and It's really the way to assurance.

It's the way to not worrying. It's the way to reading your Bible better as we've been talking about. So theological ignorance or indifference, I think is is a bit of a problem not to mention as you did.

If you have a whole system that's based upon one day. Jesus will rule and reign In Jerusalem in the Old City. Well, it's no wonder we don't emphasize him ruling and reigning now In the heavenly Jerusalem so.

Yeah, that's exactly right optimistic. Yeah, I think I think it's I I think it'll come back. I'm actually super optimistic. Well, we could probably put all of our books together and It would all work right because these are all tied in together if you have the right view of the Ascension.

It helps when it comes to law gospel and sanctification. Jesus perfectly obeyed act of obedience on earth and the Lord says Lord covenant theology. They all go together don't they. I guess this gospel doctrine of done Is emphasized exclamation point with the Ascension?

The Ascension, Christ's Mediatorial Offices, and the Last Adam

Why did you make the book purple and and have you ever bought a purple skull at Bucky's? Where I spent a hundred and forty two dollars or whatever. For you know, not novice Bucky's shopper somebody did say to me when they were what we gave a copy to each church family or church member and Somebody looked at it and looked at me and looked at it turned it over and they said I guess it's okay to have a purple book.

Well, don't you don't you have that family that loves Kansas State Wildcats and they're purple every every week? The schmaltz their daughters named after our mother Carla. So we got to love the schmaltz Purple every week.

I think I think Carla would love the book. She would purple right royalty. So that's what we're going for there. Tell us a little bit in our time left John 16 Jesus said he's going to leave the disciples and go to heaven and ascend and It's better for them.

Why was it better for them and better for us that he did us in into heaven, you know. Even thinking John 16, I'm thinking of John 14. I go to prepare a place for you. And so even tied to the fact that We don't we don't get to go into the presence of God without a mediator a perfect mediator.

Who is the God man? And so it's better that he goes so that he can Again to channel Christopher love from the 1600s so that he can break heaven open for us as the forerunner. So that we can be in the presence of God.

So in that sense, it definitely is better to the point where the Apostle Paul says that He raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places. So it's good. It's better than he left. But in a sense he he didn't he left but he took us with him at least positionally and we're waiting for the consummation.

So that we not only positionally will be seated but will actually be seated with him. So it's definitely better. Now I learned from the book and I probably should have just figured this out of my own isn't Latin.

Somehow Session in Latin is seated. Right? Is that when we say he's in his session? We're not talking about Our Presbyterian friends, although I guess they sit for their session, right? Yes, and if a king is in there sit in his session that they're ruling so when Presbyterians talk about their elders and their session, it's because they're ruling they're seated and ruling symbolic and literal.

So it's a good word. We like our Presbyterian friends. We do I think of the Mediatorial role of Jesus and and now you're making me Pat do what you wanted me to do by reading the book seen His ascension everywhere in Scripture and also in theology and theological and doctrinal terms.

So if we think of his mediatorial Reign we think of prophet priest and king and so we're ignorant. He needs to tell us things. We're dominated by our own sin and others. So he needs to be a king. But we need sacrifice.

So he's a priest but the other main thing that the priests do is they pray and So now maybe with the prophet priest and king that three trifold office. We need to start thinking more about the ascension tucked in there with the priest.

What do you think of that? I love it. The book has succeeded. Thank you. Thank you for Promoting it. This is good and you know to compliment your point. We sometimes think it's only the king that's anointed, you know, Christ is that he's that Jesus is the Christ.

He's the anointed ultimate David King, but you see prophets were anointed. Peace were anointed Kings were anointed. He's the prophet priest and King all anointed as the ultimate last Adam. So to go and then you start to see it.

You're like, oh, I'm learning a lot this prophet but he's serving as a type because the ultimate prophets yet to come and Then the priest and then the king and when Jesus is exalted as the prophet priest and king.

It's fulfilled and it's fulfilled in the ascension to quote my brother awesome. When you put your brother from the same mother. By the way I think that's the last thing that we heard our mother say and my memory is dim because it was 20 some years ago.

But you know, we're gonna have to disconnect you mom from some of these chemicals that are keeping you alive no sense to suffer absent from the body present with the Lord to live as Christ to die as gain and You know, we need your we want your permission to to disconnect you kind of thing.

And I think that's the last word. I heard her say kind of pale gray Deathbed sweaty morphine. I think she said awesome. Awesome, and then instead of asking you for Reviews of her Bible study that she taught at Omaha Bible Church or asking me questions about her first-by-verse study of the Gospel of John.

She's a better theologian than both of us combined right now. It's true. It's true. Talking to Pat Abendroth today the pactum is the podcast. The book is called the Ascension forgotten gospel doctrine.

You can get it on Amazon. I'm pretty sure if you email me and you want bulk copies. I'll take a cut as the middleman as I forward that Credit where credit is due. But I'm sure if they if they want bulk copies.

You'll give them a discount right? That's that's what I do. I know that's what you do. And they can reach out to the pactum website the back from dot org. That is great. How many pactum shows have you done so far Pat?

I? Think we're getting close to 300. So I'm not not close to your 300 million, but we you know, we're plugging along. I think I said the other day something about how the pactum is taken away. No compromise listeners because I've said everything I need to say I think they're.

I think they complement each other. There are two different animals. How about that? I think so, but I just want everybody to know and if Mike Grimes is in the room where you are right? Now, there's only one Mike and Pat or Pat and Mike and it has nothing to do with Grimes.

Even though he's a good guitar player. It's true, but some people prefer to keep the Abendroth's out of it. Pat thanks so much for your work in ministry. I'm proud to call you a brother and a friend and It's great to get books like this the ascension the forgotten gospel doctrine everybody who listen to no compromise radio should read this book.

Thanks for being on the show today Pat. Awesome, Mike. Thank you so much. Love you.