Part 2: Answering Islam w/ @TheAlMaidahInitiative

The Christian and Muslim View of Jesus

Hello everyone, this is Jeremiah Roberts one of the co-hosts here at cultish. I want to give you a heartfelt. Thanks for those of you who have Generously given and supported our ministry the last few months.

It's been very very helpful. We do however need additional support as we head into 2025. Currently, we are operating roughly around 35 to 40 percent of what we need to operate on a monthly basis. So if you've been blessed by our content that we've been able to release to you We'd ask that you would prayerfully consider partnering with us and be part of the mission to impact and change lives.

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And it would allow us to continue this important mission to engage the kingdom of the cults. So all that being said enjoy this next podcast. All right. Welcome back Ladies and gentlemen to coldish. My name is Jeremiah Roberts one of the co-hosts here.

We are here in part 5 technically like 5 .1 we were Recording we thought we were recording from we were going for about 20 minutes only to realize that gave walked in and said hey I just didn't realize you guys have started again.

So we actually this is the the new the new the new new version of Five point of part five. Part two that being said I'm here with Andrew. I'm good to have you back man Officially on the record unlike last time.

Yeah, it feels great. I'm excited to do this. Islam 5 .1 theology roppers. Let's go.

Yes, and I'll might a part 5 Tokyo drift. Yes. As we know from the last episode of how Muslims relate to their sources. The Islamic sources aren't more powerful than family. Yes.

I've been diesel has entered the chat now where Dom has entered the chat. So, yeah, but we are gonna be talking about a very important segment and also we're joined by back by James and I bar. Thank you for having back with us.

Let's jump into it. We're gonna talk about the distinctions between Islam and Christianity. And so we are gonna be gonna go over some very very important categories. So let's just jump right into it. Jesus how is he viewed in the Islamic world?

What do we need to understand about how Islam? Understands and relates to Jesus. And what can we understand to relate to them and to be able connect with them as Christians?

Yeah, so. One thing you'll hear all the time. Actually once you get to know Muslims is that they'll say, you know, we love Jesus. We believe Jesus is one of our prophets. So the other day I was in my local coffee shop and I was talking to this guy who overheard a conversation I was having and asked was asking a bunch of questions about al-maida and I said I wanted to make you know Jesus the person Jesus clearer to Muslims.

And this Moroccan woman said, excuse me. What do you mean by that? That seems strange to me because we Muslims we love Jesus we believe in Jesus. And I asked okay, well, what's that? What's the thing that Jesus said.

And yeah, there wasn't an answer there and Part of that is because a lot of Jesus in the Quran is kind of an argument against what Christians believe about Jesus. But it's a little more complicated than that.

Now the.

Islamic narrative about Jesus. I don't want to call it a narrative actually because the Quran doesn't have a narrative yet they find this from sort of scattered places and I've been going through this this last week, but One of the the sort of what we're going to start from is everything it's saying about him is actually chapters surah Mariam in the Quran.

Which is a whole chapter about Mary and the birth of Jesus. Mm-hmm and Islam and Christianity basically start in the same place. Which is the angel Gabriel appears to Mary in the Islamic version. She thinks he's you know, it's of a single man.

She's like no get away from me. I'm yeah, I'm I mean gay I'm I'm like a pious chaste woman. I'm not coming near you. It's like no, no, no. No, I'm just a messenger from God come to give you a message, right?

And the message is is that you're gonna have a you know a child that God will teach him reading and writing and wisdom and the Torah and the gospel and Yeah, we'll teach you perform miracles, right? Yeah, so we're at the same place basically at this point and Most people realize that Islam does not believe Jesus God Islam does not believe in the crucifixion, but there's the deep the difference is actually start much sooner than that and What you see is the difference is actually start with the birth narrative of Jesus Itself.

So in the Bible Mary goes to Bethlehem with Joseph to have the baby.

And.

What I'm finding is that most Muslims have no category for Joseph, right? They Believe that Mary was just kind of a single mother with no partner. They don't realize that she Had a fiance at the time who was also visited by an angel and told to kind of look after her.

Yeah, so. So so in the Quranic narrative Mary goes alone to a date palm tree outside of her village Gives birth and then comes back carrying the baby and Then everybody is like you've committed adultery.

We've done an indecent act and they want to stone her but then she points at the baby and They're like why are you pointing the baby? It's just a baby can't say anything and Then the baby starts to speak and vindicates Mary saying I am a messenger from Allah sent to perform miracles.

Blessed is the day I am born blessed will be the day I die and blessed be the day that I am raised to life so. Yeah, so then that's how Mary is vindicated whereas of course in the biblical account Note the community doesn't even know that Mary's pregnant out of wedlock because Joseph marries her then they go to Bethlehem.

Then running from Bethlehem, they go to Egypt and you know from Egypt. That's when they go back to Nazareth showing back showing it back up with like, you know Probably a four or five year old Jesus not like a baby so It's much subtler the way that God vindicates Mary in the biblical narrative.

To the point that everybody thinks that Jesus is actually Joseph's son. Hmm, and so the Islamic narrative is different there and there's also an account where Jesus as a child Turns a clay bird breathes life into it and makes it a real bird and what's interesting about both these stories is speaking from the cradle and.

The.

Clay birds being turned into real birds is. They're present in what's called the sort of infancy gospel of Thomas. Which is a Gnostic work that predate that it comes after the rest of Christianity. The New Testament and we know this by the way because it quotes the gospel of Luke.

Yeah borrows from it. And it has Jesus speaking from the cradle. Yeah, let me ask you this.

What would be the when it comes to the influence that the different like Gnostics or other gospels? Like we had a whole series with our good friend Wes Kind of talking about you know. The different gospels whether it's the gospel of Thomas the gospel according to Peter and all these ones.

They have these like really weird. You know, very strange stories about Jesus supposed childhood. Was the appeal to these as Muslims may have been just that. This is what they would have had exposure to like the Gospels came in their hands around the time when this was like Formulating their idea and theology of Jesus.

Or is it kind of like they formulated their idea of who Jesus was and then kind of Found the Gnostic Gospels to kind of like back them up. Like that that fit in within their prejudices or is it a bit a little bit of both?

It's a little looser than that. Yeah. So the way to think about the religious milieu before the Quran comes about is again, there's lots of Christian sects around there's lots of you know Jewish Jewish kind of voices around and There's all these stories.

They're just kind of like floating around the ether told around campfires from generation to generation and so. What you see with a lot of the sort of references back to like what's supposed to be Jewish scripture in the Quran is Actually referencing back to the kind of like the Talmud Or the Midrash and stories we can find pre-existing is Islam for example, right?

So the story of Shadrach Meshach and Abednego for example in Jewish folklore ends up becoming a story about Abraham being thrown into a furnace by Nimrod.

Hmm and.

In the Quran they reference this Jewish folk tale about Abraham getting thrown into the fire By Nimrod and you can and and a lot of places where the Quran is referencing the Bible It kind of combines a lot of stories into one.

So there's one place where it's talking about King Saul and it basically combines the story of King Saul with Gideon where King Saul is leading the army to fight the Philistines and He did he needs to figure out who his men were and the ones that lap water like a dog are the ones that go With him and then David is the one of Saul's men who kills Goliath, right?

Yeah, so it just kind of like blends everything together and there's lots of things like this in the Quran which can be you know can be kind of demonstrated historically and We're gonna be producing a video on that this year.

Mm-hmm now committed.

And.

Probably this will be already be released now. I'm really committed. Yeah, um and. And so it's not that Muhammad is kind of reading these Gnostic Gospels is that. Anyone hearing stories about Jesus is gonna hear all these stories, right?

He's gonna hear Mary visiting being visited by Gabriel. He's gonna hear Baby speaking from the cradle. He's gonna hear clay bird turn into a real bird, right? And so that's kind of what it becomes. I I don't think there's any kind of Formal measuring of the written accounts and Muslims saying yes, the Gnostic Gospels the real ones the biblical us was the fake ones.

No, it's not it's not that cut-and-dry. It's just kind of which stories are kind of adapted. Yeah other stories are You know much more, you know directly you just kind of confrontational about you know Christian Theology.

But Jesus is still described as somebody who performs miracles who raised raised the dead who Cleanses lepers from their sins not from that from their leprosies rather.

And.

It also it says in the Quran that Jesus You know Removed some of the restrictions that have been put on the people of God before him as well. So the Quran soldiers to somebody who made the rules easier.

The.

One another point of deviation is this really interesting story in Surah Al-Ma 'idah same names on ministry means a table full of food and conversation and the end of this Surah has some surface level parallels to John 6 because Jesus is recorded as being with his disciples and They asked him to prove himself By calling down a table spread of from heaven so that he can all eat.

The only time is like this in John 6 where people are asking Jesus to bring down bread from heaven. Whereas in the Quran Jesus does bring a table of food down from heaven, but it says once this happens You will have no excuse other than to believe in me whereas in the Bible Jesus doesn't bring food down from heaven in response that he says I Am the food that comes down from heaven.

So in in it, it's actually a great way to draw the distinction. So in Islam Jesus is somebody who brings us to the table of God's goodness. Yeah in the Bible Jesus is that table of good God's goodness for us?

So after that the Quranic Jesus predicts another messenger is coming named Ahmed. You know supposed to be pointing to Mohammed.

And then.

What you start to get in Surah An-Nisa, which is the fourth Surah and Surah Al-Ma 'ida the fifth Surah is this. You know your contention that Jesus is not God. That he never claimed to be God. It says did did I say Allah will ask Jesus son of Mary?

Did you take did I did I say take my mother and I as gods in degradation of Allah?

And.

And and then it also, you know denies the crucifixion of Jesus as well. So it says that Jesus was not killed nor was he crucified. It was only Made to appear that way to him to them again. That is not a new idea.

That probably comes from the Gnostic sources as well. There's something called the treat the discourse of the great Seth. Yeah, which makes that exact case. I'm like I was reading that last week. I've never Read anything that reads more like the direct words of Satan than that specific Gnostic discourse.

But yeah, that's basically the idea is that the crucifixion was an illusion of some kind most Muslims believe Judas was put in Jesus place.

And.

And so they they believe he was then taken up to heaven. And once you get into the Hadith.

That.

Muslims believe that Jesus will actually return one day to kill the Antichrist, but he'll return in Damascus. And What the Hadith says is he'll? Break the crosses and kill the swine. Meaning he'll make Christians and Muslims one entity on earth and then the end of the world will come and then on Judgment Day.

It says that he will not intercede for anybody. People go to him and ask him intercede for me. But he'll say go to Muhammad and ask him because his sins have been forgiven. And that's basically everything the Islamic sources say about Jesus.

Wow.

I've our do what. What would you want to web tie in to that? I mean he's covered quite a bit here. What was everything he's saying like what comes to mind for you? I?

Mean growing up for us Jewish Jesus was just a Political idea right. So you know growing up Turkish Jesus was just something that Christians did and Christians kind of always had an agenda, right? My dad had a hard time connecting with Christians because of his Islamic faith, but you know.

What I've tended to notice in dealing with with Muslims now is that they have a really hard time reconciling the continuity of Scripture With who they think Jesus is like everything that you said right.

So when you start talking to them about Jesus they have all of these preconceived ideas, but then we start having these conversations it turns into. Well, you know he was Jewish right like he was born, and he was born in Bethlehem you know.

He he he was a rabbi right like his followers were were were Jewish. The disciples were Jewish. He he went to the temple you know. He did a lot of things that you wouldn't be able to do If you said that you were not Jewish.

So.

It's like the progressive revelation of Scripture right. It starts in Genesis, and it goes all the way to Revelation. And Jesus comes along and carries the story of God forward. And brings forth you know he's the Messiah right.

And It just becomes like a mishmash of ideas right. Where you know I would mention in the last episode I had a two-hour conversation with somebody who thought that Jesus was a Muslim. Because of certain passages one of them being John 10 right.

And John 10 Jesus is talking to the Pharisees. And he says go tell Your God, and I'll go tell my God right. I mean and Jesus is just making a point of discussion between how they perceive God and who God really is.

But this Muslim looked at it and said that it's actually two different gods and Jesus is Referencing. The word he uses for God is Elijah. And he says that means Allah right. Yeah. We spent like two hours talking about that and and topics like that about how that just couldn't be possible.

Based on You know the life that Jesus led. So yeah, so. That's what I would add to that. I mean in in the sources. You know they believe that he's not divine right, but as Christians.

We believe that he is and part of the reason they kind of we kind of get here is. You know often when we talk to Muslims we feel like They always taking Bible verses out of context which is 100 true.

But the the reason for that is they're not really even trained to think in context. Right the Quran does not come in context. The information comes to people piece by piece. You know you're morsel by morsel.

So you know you learn these things as you're sitting around the dinner table with your family. And you just you know you hear these things from place to place so. You know the foundation of their logic becomes these things they have repeated over and over again like you know.

There is one God who has no son, and that is the most logical thing in the world. Yeah, and so When they read say you know you know numbers 23 where it says God is not a man that he should lie or the son of a man He should repent or change his mind, then they say look see your book.

Believes the same thing that our book believes. Yeah. And they don't they have no interest in the context of that. Not because they're Deliberately trying to be insincere because they don't they're not used to thinking in context.

Yeah, right, and they and if they did they'd realize that God has already appeared in human form. Several times up to that point in the narrative, and it's not saying that that passage is not forbid God from appearing physically.

Right it it means that God isn't manipulated by people or isn't lie. They also you know view.

The Christian view of Jesus's conception for instance as well. Then you must believe that God came and had sex with Mary. And then they had a child right and that's what you're saying. But they don't believe that God can exist in the physical realm first of all and then why would he do that second of all?

But.

Yeah, we don't believe that either right. We don't believe that that happened either, but the Quran pretty heavily implies.

We do believe that. Right. So it's very difficult for them to get around the idea that we don't. Right. Right yeah.

And Andrew real quickly. Yeah, yeah, what's what's on it? What's on your mind here Andrew? Yeah? I'm just wondering.

What's the like. What are their scholarly consensus on the importance of the virgin birth. Like why emphasize the virgin birth like what? Does have any theological significance within Islam. Obviously we know within Christianity?

Why a virgin birth is so important, but what about in Islam was their scholarly consensus for that?

I hold on to that. It's really just a display of God's power. There's not really. It's not nothing really other than look at how special and significant this person is. The sort of you know through line of like original sin and the prophecy to the woman is just not it's just not there.

Because again Islam does not think in this Terms of grand narrative and context in the way the Bible does so it can't really make those kind of connections.

It's kind of like well. I'll give you that he had power. I'll give you that he was a prophet. I'll get. I'll give you that He did things that you know no other prophet did but you know clearly.

He he wasn't God and here are our reasons. Why right right? You've got it. He clearly needs to. Because Jesus is such a significant figure that he needs to acknowledge him.

Yeah.

And like you know many other systems of belief do you don't delete him entirely. You take what you can what you can kind of? Fit into your worldview, and then you twist it to become what you want it to become right also.

And you know in terms of his return right. Like you have to you have to explain the fact that he's coming back. Right you have to explain the fact that he has all of this authority. And and you know is essentially the one that God sends to judge the world.

So yeah, yeah, and again. There's there's a lot of there's a lot of debates, and we could probably do a whole level of podcasts just on the distinction between Muslims and Christians and and how Jesus is viewed as what we could go over just just one other question I have before you kind of go into some other good topical points.

Is that when you look at a lot of the Gnostic Gospels? Underlying Gnostics had a Underlying worldview that the flesh is bad. So because of that that came in direct conflict with the nature and reality of the hypostatic Union God taking on flesh.

So with it with Muslims like what's their view of like the nature between like the flesh and the spirit like who are we? Ontologically are there presuppositions that they have and maybe it's difference if you're like Sunni or Shia like on what the nature is of like Human nature of the flood is the flesh goods is there emphasis on the spirit and does that carry over between?

Maybe it seems to be some prejudice towards like the Gnostic writings like I remember being this came to mind. I remember being community college and I remember I had a guy who was a guest speaker who is Muslim.

He was advocating for the swoon theory, and I remember like come on I was just getting into like the case for Christ apologetics and all that sort of stuff. And I was like how you're an intelligent guy.

Can you honestly like who and I was actually majoring in criminal justice studies? I'm like this makes no like for nobody would make create a forensic report like this like so anyways. But that's that's where I'm going with this.

Are there underlying presuppositions that would make them Aim towards like the Gnostic like writings or those belief systems.

No, I mean so the thing is. What's interesting though is the logic in Gnosticism of Why Jesus couldn't have a physical body right? He's actually pretty much the same logic. And Islam is why Allah cannot take physical form because Allah is pure light.

He's noor. And the Arabic word for light, and so he can't and he doesn't enter physical form. I can't do that. And that's what the Gnostics believe Jesus was a pure light being that couldn't have had a physical body.

So the logic the underlying logic is the same there. But except Jesus has moved from the super God category and Gnosticism. Yeah, the not God at all category in Islam.

So it's just another words would it's a stumbling block to not only have him take on flesh. But then on top of that have them be humiliated cruise and crucified. Right right right. Um and.

Like the thing is I'd say again Islam takes from a lot of different sources, so They don't believe in the evil of the physical world.

But um.

What they do believe is that Adam and Eve were created in paradise and Then they were sent to earth Because the story is the same except instead of being sent out of Eden Eden's on earth. In the Bible it Like paradise in a different dimension, and they're sent to the earth as well to that.

It's called the dunya. So the idea is here is a temporary dwelling place That will eventually be you know Destroyed whereas in the Bible you know the Meeks will inherit the earth right. The earth is our eternal home Once it's made new in Islam.

That's not the case. They didn't talk about the resurrection, but Exactly what the nature of that is is is a little bit more You know more nebulous in some ways more specific in other ways like what the rewards are yeah, but um.

It kind of it kind of approaches it both ways. Yeah, okay, all right. Well That's a good category, and I'm sure you have a lot more on your YouTube channel people can check out. I think that's a good starting point to see some of the unique distinctions.

Then what. Now let's go move on to God who the nature of God is. So the Obviously Jesus is God, but the only I know the things we have it from a starting point what we have in common. Monotheism. There is only one God so far.

Christians on the same Christians and Muslims on the same page however now. There's a distinction between Allah. Whether or not he's I understand that whether or not he's a personal as it as in the Christian God and also him being triune.

That's where immediately against a fragment and separate be distinct from each other. So I'd love to hear from both your perspectives like what do you want to go first like well sure yeah? Let's have you go first.

What do you say are the main distinctions when the nature of God between Christians and Muslims. I?

Mean when When we were growing up you know God is distant. Right he's he's in he's in heaven, and he doesn't talk to you. He only talked to Muhammad right. He only he only he intervenes in your life and and.

You know but he's he's there and more of like a judgmental sense right. He's a judge. And he's watching you and he wants to see what you're going to do, and if you do something bad. There's punishment.

And you know that comes in the contrast with the Christian view of God right. That God wants to be Intimately involved in your life because he's your creator, and he's trying to draw you draw himself back to you.

You know Muslims don't believe in original sin. Mm-hmm. They believe you're you're born a Good person and that outside influences corrupt you. Right. They take you away from this idea of what Allah is.

So.

You know I think there's an inherent difference in that. I think that there's also you know the way that we look at God as Christians is through the scope of the Old Testament and how he reveals himself.

And I think that the way that Muslims view God is the Old Testament is merely like a support structure for Allah and Muslims. Really pick up the story the most with Jesus right. It's a you know a lot like Replacement theology right.

So you know the the Jews are no longer the people of God. It's the Christians. The Christians are no longer the people of God now. It's the Muslims you know and the Mormons and so on and so forth. So I think it's easier for them to go back to the story of Jesus and you know accept the Explanation right that he's not divine and then therefore that justifies Muhammad and the things that he said.

Yeah, no I appreciate that. Um. Would you have any things you want to web into that. Yeah, I was. Is right.

Except that just to give some more nuance to this. The Islamic sources definitely talk about God in kind of both ways here I'm so if certainly talks about you know a law kind of you know being removed from you know earth and intervention.

But it also says a lot is closer to you than your own aorta and so you kind of have You you have verses that say both so sometimes muds you will find Muslims you try and kind of Hang on to this idea of you know Allah's closeness.

But there's not really there's not really a kind of like theological framework to kind of like take those Your disparate things and kind of unite them. The one that I've heard the most is.

When Allah protected Abu Bakr and Muhammad. From the people who were chasing them and how he hid them right like that. There's an instance of them being involved, but.

That's you know probably the most potent example ever. Yeah, and so there's one hadith which talks for example in eternity Allah will descend to paradise every Friday for Jumma prayer. So it's kind of like a once so there's kind of what you're kind of really getting in the long run.

It's kind of a once or once a week during.

Prayers.

Relationship with God so you will actually eventually see him to some capacity. But not even in a way in a certain. It's kind of like the front of the crowd when it's distant when he's distant kind of thing.

Mm-hmm. And then there's also things like you know On the day of Arafat, which is you know? You're part of one of the sort of Islamic holy months this idea that Allah comes closer to the earth on Than on any other night and answers everybody's prayers on that night as well, so there's lots of different ways.

It's Formulated for Muslims, but you know one thing that is consistent is that They believe that God is absolutely Unitarian. They don't believe that God you know it's a good point has the Trinity is completely out of the scope of that you know realm of thinking and They don't believe God can take physical form.

They And so they believe God is one being one person. Absolute monotheism, and that's the kind of basic Objection they have to the idea of the Trinity.

I mean part of the justification for them saying that he wasn't crucified. I think just kind of ties into this idea that Righteous people don't do anything wrong and God protects them so nothing happens to them.

We had a conversation with a friend of ours. Who's a Muslim and very knowledgeable. But he couldn't wrap his mind around the fact that.

David.

Sinned.

Like or anyone any of the prophets Jonah. That they would do anything that was outside of God's will that they were like supposed to be perfect near perfect people. Yeah. And I think that that colors.

You know how they view the idea of a Christian God. So the way that we approach it is is that yes? He was sinless, but he took our sin upon himself and that he was you know. Bruised and afflicted for what we did and that he atoned us like he atoned for our sin.

Mm-hmm, and I think that's just such a foreign concept for them when you look at it. You say well. You know. God God Puts these people on a pedestal. You know essentially for the rest of us to be able to look at them as an example right.

Yeah.

Andrew do you have any questions or what comes to mind?

No, yeah.

It's it's hard for me to wrap my head around some of the Islamic beliefs in terms of trying to you know Deal with Jesus. But then have Jesus not be God when the New Testament so clearly teaches that Jesus is God and the Old Testament could be prophesied of God coming in the flesh like so it's it's hard for me to wrap my head around how I get the the monotheistic Unitarian idea of just One one God that that they have and they want to reject Christ, but for some reason they still have to deal with Christ and Since they have to deal with Christ outside of the context of the New Testament It's just a different Jesus really because when we talk about well Who is God we have to in turn talk about Jesus because he's the monogamous They are sees the unique and only Son of God who has made the Father known to us John 1 18 right?

No one has ever seen God the Father except for the Son who's at his father's side. He was revealed him to us all the way back from the Old Testament in the garden. It was the pre-incarnate Christ who?

Sacrificed the skin of the animals right to cover Adam and Eve as their mediator even back then before the father to actually then when he takes on flesh and dies the death that we deserve like. Yeah, I don't know if we need if I if it's too early to segue into the next part.

But how do they deal with sin is their sin within their worldview? Like how does that work? How is their human evil within their worldview? Um, I I don't know these things. So I'm truly I'm truly asking to understand.

Yes, let's move to that. But yeah before we do I think again going back to this point that Muslim thinking is generally very out of context. So It's you know when we think of things as Christians as We think of this sort of overarching narrative of the Bible and how every part of Scripture fits together and Jesus believes in that narrative and puts himself in that narrative and we can make those we can kind of connect those dots.

But if you're just kind of dealing with the Bible as points of disconnected data The way that the average Muslim and it honestly most, you know Serious Muslims are going to do then it's kind of easy to kind of make it say whatever you whatever you want to say right, so if you're you know, Mormon or Jehovah's Witness what you have to do is you have to take another authority over the scriptures and You make that other authority the context what the Bible is actually saying.

Rather than allowing to beat the Bible to be its own context, right? And that is exactly what Islam is doing from this right essentially plot armor. Yeah, right. Yeah, so what they're doing is they're reading things completely out of context.

They're taking their beliefs which come after Christianity retconning themselves back into Christianity and acting like what they believe is Perfectly logical and it's always been what God's people believed even though there's not, you know real evidence.

For that outside of their own sources, right? And then when they come into contact with the sources that disagree with them, they have to allege the corruption of those Sources, right, but if you read God's words from the beginning starting with Genesis We see God functioning in different ways right from the very beginning as Andrew was saying we see this sort of mediatory sacrifice early on.