Jinger Duggar Vuolo: Confessions of a People Pleaser - Cultish

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Jinger Duggar Vuolo and the Previous Book on Bill Gothard

All right. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to Cultish. My name is Jeremiah Roberts, one of the co-hosts here. I'm with my trusty friend, super sleuth and all around good friend up in a super secret headquarters.

Andrew, I'm assuming you're doing really good and you've got a book that you have on you. Hold up the book so everyone can see it because that's what we're.

Going to talk about today. Let's do it. Ready? Here we go. Yes. I'm excited today, Jerry. This is going to be a wonderful conversation that we have today with Ginger. How are you doing today,.

Ginger? Great. Yes. Thank you guys for having me back. Awesome. So let me just jump into it. So.

Last time you were here, you had talked about your previous book. Tell it, just give everyone the title of the book in case they haven't heard this, in case it's the first thing they've heard about you.

Most people, a lot of people have, but what would you tell us about the initial book.

That you had written? Yes. So the previous book I wrote was called Becoming Free Indeed, and it was talking about my journey out of the teachings of Bill Gothard, which were based in fear, superstition.

And it was not based in the Bible, but I grew up believing it was. And so that was my breakdown, my theological memoir, walking out of those teachings and finding freedom in Christ, being able to disentangle truth from error.

And I had a passion to write that book because I saw so many of my friends and loved ones who had just abandoned the faith because they thought that Bill Gothard's teachings were the Bible and they were confused as to how there could be anything different from that where they could find truth.

And so I wanted to expose those lies and to be able to share my story in a way that hopefully was helpful. And so, yes,.

That was my previous book. Awesome. And so the book that we're going to be talking about today is called People Pleaser. This book just came out. Tell us just about the book and what motivated you to write this.

Because we are going to unpack and talk more about it. But initially, just give us a summary of the book and what's your motive and your passion about this whole topic?

The Struggle to Please Everyone and the Cost of Backlash

Yeah, so it's interesting. I think that the reason I initially wanted to talk about this is because I am a people pleaser and I realized that I want to keep everyone happy all the time and no matter what the cost.

And so that was something that I had wrestled with even from when I was younger. Some of that was partially due to temperament and the other part of it was just being afraid of what other people thought about me in general.

And so this book has been something that has been on my heart, especially coming out of writing Becoming Free Indeed. I looked back over that time and prior to writing that book, I thought, okay, there are so many issues where I see myself coming up with excuses, not wanting to do things, maybe wanting to isolate myself because I don't want people to see who I truly am.

Or I didn't want to write that book because Becoming Free Indeed was difficult. I knew that I was going to face backlash and maybe people who grew up in that system would hate me for writing it or I might be stirring up waters with family and friends.

And so that was something that was difficult. And I wrestled with that for years and not knowing when I should write it. And I think a lot of that stemmed from my people pleasing. I thought if I'm in a good place with people, they think I'm fine right now.

I don't want to be able to. I don't want to get people stirred up for any reason to get them on my bad side. And so maybe if I'm just quiet, that's the answer. But it got to the point where I realized these teachings were so harmful and no one else was speaking up against them in my setting.

And so I knew that the Lord had allowed me to have this platform for a reason and I needed to speak truth no matter the cost. And so, yeah, once I did that, it was amazing to see how God used that book and did help many people come to freedom in Christ.

And that was something that really showed me even more how I can't be a people pleaser. I cannot be so consumed with what other people think about me because then I'm actually not loving others well. It's a selfish motive to protect myself from other people's opinions of me.

Awesome. Thank you for sharing that. Andrew, so a lot has changed since we interviewed Ginger. You are now a pastor officially. And I was thinking as I was reading the book, Andrew, that is that you've had a lot of pastoral conversations of people in your congregation who deal with that exact thing, people pleasing, which I'm sure is part of your regular pastoral counseling schedule.

In terms of just the book and you and Andrew, you reading Ginger's new book, what are some things that come to mind to you? And what.

Questions would you have for Ginger? Yeah, certainly. So I really resonate with what you're talking about, Ginger. We know that Jesus was not a people pleaser, right? He came to do the will of his father.

And we have a saying here at Colchis, it's like controversy for controversy is a sin, but controversy for the kingdom of God is a divine command, right? So in terms of writing your first book, it wasn't just to get people angry.

There was a real reason for it. And I think it was almost like you putting your foot out to say that I don't want to be a people pleaser anymore. There's going to be a group of people who may be angry, but if this is God's truth and I do it for a reason, that's a good thing, right?

So going through your book, a people pleaser, one thing that caught my eye, which I think would be awesome for people to try to grasp is that there's this like teeter-totter with people pleasing. It's like, are you trying to please God or are you trying to please man?

But what happens when you're trying to please God so much that you can almost be a pharisaical in a sense, right? Like where you don't watch the movie with your friends, but you go up and pray instead and you let them know about that.

Like how do you balance the people pleasing in a sense where you're honoring God and still honoring the.

Relationships that you have? Yeah, I think that that is an interesting point, Andrew, because it's a tough balance to face as Christians. I think we have in our minds how often we'll look at somebody even in a church setting, right?

Like as Jeremiah just said, you are now in that pastoral position. And I think we all know many people who are in the church, they're doing all the things, they're serving at every event, bringing food to every potluck, cleaning up afterwards, leading Bible studies, helping in nursery.

And you're like, wow, and playing the piano. And you're like, how do you do it all? And they're juggling so much. And it's like, well, we just have to stop and see why are you doing that? Is it out of genuine love for the Lord?

Is it what the Lord's called you to do? Or are you doing that, like you said, for the approval, for to please men, to please people in the church, for them to think, oh, wow, you have it all together.

Because if that's the heart motivation, then that is wrong. If it's a motivation of getting others to applaud you, to look at you, to see all the things that seems like you're doing for the kingdom, for the glory of God.

Well, ultimately each person will have to examine in their own heart and ask the Lord what he would have them to do. Because there are people who are, as we would call them, serial servers, they're doing all those things.

And yet if it's done for the wrong motives or in the wrong place, then it's actually, it can be a detriment. It can be actually not helpful because maybe they're neglecting their family or maybe their own soul is suffering.

Maybe they need to sit in on some services instead of serving perpetually. And so there are these things that come up in people pleasing where it can be one extreme or the other. And like we said, there's the other extreme of isolation because here you are, you're in a church setting and you're trying to protect yourself.

You don't want anybody to see who you truly are. So you isolate yourself. You don't come to church services to serve. You come to have everybody see how good you are on the outside, but don't let anybody in.

And so I think that we can go from one extreme to the other and ultimately finding the balance.

In the middle is important. No, that's really good. So a question I would have for you too is in this whole process of doing the book, I noticed as I was reading through, you told a lot of great stories particularly, but they all seem to sort of relate.

And I definitely recommend you guys check out the book for yourself. A lot of them are related to both your marriage to Jeremy and also having children. So I am newly married. I'm also a new father. I just had a son who just turned one.

And so that's definitely, I definitely could relate to a lot of facts of like having your hands full and just saying all that my sweet wife has to deal with all the time. Is there, was there something just particular about that season of both being married to Jeremy and motherhood that sort of maybe brought that because, you know, you mentioned too in the, in your book that, you know, you grew up with cameras all around you as 19 kids accounting was being filmed.

Was there something particular about that season of your life that kind of brought this to the forefront? Cause that the stories around both your marriage to Jeremy and you and your children seem to come up a lot with the stories that you tell.

Yes. Cause as, as you know,.

When you're in that stage of like parenting, it is just, it just consumes you. There are so many things that come out of that. And so I wanted to share a lot of those personal stories because I feel like almost any parent can relate to them.

So yes, whenever we were first married, I remember coming out of the system, especially the setting of Bill Gothard, there was so much focus on the woman being, keeping everything together, having the perfect home, having the perfect smile, keeping the house in order, keeping meals and being joyfully available to your husband at all times.

And it all landed on you to keep up the performance of having everything together. And it wasn't until we were in marriage for several months that I started to realize that I was so, um, afraid really to like share my mind, to speak my mind on anything.

It could be the smallest thing. Like Jeremy would always often ask me like, Hey, where should we go to dinner? What are you, what are you in the mood for? I'm like, whatever you want, whatever you want is fine.

And ultimately, yeah, I might've been craving pizza that day, but I wasn't going to tell him. Cause I was like, I want to be this happy wife. Just so easy to get along with. And I wanted to stay on his good side.

Um, and I think that in that place, I kept thinking that any sort of argument or even a, just a difference was going to be rejection. And I didn't want to put our, us in that place of having any tension ever.

And so I was trying to please him perfectly and do all these things. And Jeremy just said to me, he was like, babe, I just want you to know what you actually think I really do. He's like, I don't want you to be a clone of me.

I want to hear what you, what you think, what things you agree with, like what things you don't. And so moving forward into parenting that only becomes more, you know, front and center with all the things you have to think through and pray through.

Like, do we homeschool? Do we send our kid to this private Christian school? What do we do? And all of those opinions, you can't keep them in forever. You have to talk about it. And I think that I was so afraid of speaking, even what was on my heart because I thought, well, then he might not be happy with me.

And I think a lot of that did go back to the false teachings that I grew up under that preconceived idea that it has to be all about us staying on the same page forever and me making him so happy that he will be so content with me and he will never leave, which is totally messed up for in concept to like Jeremy.

He was like, that doesn't make any sense. So once we talked about it, it was so helpful for me to come out of that. And I will say parenting definitely was something that was the next level, right? Where I remember those early years, I was struggling figuring out, you know, how to get my colicky baby to sleep.

And when friends would come over, I would feel embarrassed that like, okay, I can't come out and chat with you now because I have a crying baby and I can't figure out what to do with her. But I was afraid to like, talk to people about it too, because I thought, well, it seems like their kids go to bed fine.

And we're like, you know, the older they get, like, what are you going to do with your kids and talk to other moms? It was tough for me to figure out, okay. I, I kept feeling like every mom that would come over, Oh, her kids eat organic.

Maybe I should just put away all the unhealthy snacks while she's here. And then the next mom that would come over, she eats junk food and her kid, you know, her kid's picky. And I'm like, okay, I can breathe a sigh of relief.

And I was constantly trying to please every relationship in my life and be a clone of them. And it was really eating me alive because I could not have a genuine relationship because I was not even living out who thought it created me to be.

And I couldn't love others well, because I was coming at it from a selfish motive.

Marriage, Motherhood, and the Pressure to Be a Clone

So Andrew, I'm going to let you jump in. So you've been married a bit longer than I have. You have a few more kids than I have. A number five is right around the corner for you. In fact, my number five may be here by the time we drop this episode.

So that being said, what comes to mind when you, when, when it comes to people pleasing you, just your experience with your marriage to Casey and what, what questions would you have for ginger in that regard?

Yeah, absolutely. People pleasing can be a detrimental thing to a marriage, especially if you're a man trying to constantly please your wife in areas where correction could be given. Correction can come from both ways, right?

Your wife ought to be free to correct you as well if you're in the wrong, but if you're too consumed with pleasing your wife and not correcting things that need to be corrected, there can be bad things that have, there's, there's consequences in the home for that.

It can affect your children. It can affect even your relationship with your wife, things of that nature. You should be able to speak open and honestly with your loved one, your significant other, your other half, right?

The bone of my bone flesh of my flesh. And we should be able to do that in the freedom of our marriage with Christ as the center of our relationship because grace and mercy and forgiveness flows from Jesus.

One of my, one of my questions for you, ginger in the book, there's actual assessments in the book, and these are some positive traits here that I'm going to name. And when I read these traits out, you can, you can think to yourself and be like, these sound like fruits of the spirit.

In a sense, these sound like great traits for an individual to have. Can you explain how there's a, there could be a negative ramification to these traits? I'm just going to name them. And I just want to see if you can help flesh this out a little bit for us, ginger, because I think it's very helpful.

So here's the traits helpful, compliant, easygoing, considerate, laid back, cooperative, peacemaker, caregiver, accommodating, self-sacrificing, and generous. Those sound like an amazing character trait to have.

What could be the issue with some of those traits?

The Difference Between Fruit of the Spirit and People-Pleasing Motives

Yeah, I think really going back to the heart motivation behind it, because I think when I was labeled as half of those things, I was at my most miserable place because people outside can see the outside of your heart and think, oh, wow, these are good fruits of the spirit you're seeing.

But ultimately, like, I think we want to have those. We want to exemplify those from a place of first, as a believer, it all starts there. It all starts as a Christian. Without Christ, we can't do any of these things.

And I think when you're trying to do it in the flesh, when you're trying to work out all of these fruits of the spirit for the glory of God, that will never happen unless you have a relationship with Christ where he has changed you first.

And then once you have been changed and God has washed away your sin, you've been washed in the blood of Christ, he's made you a new creation, then those things are going to, ultimately, the fruit of the spirit will play itself out in the life of the Christian.

But I think for me, whenever those would come up as positives, I would ultimately be thinking, well, that's so good. People are thinking well of me. But it also made me motivated, maybe first by that person's opinion of me instead of first by what God thought of me and what my actual heart motive was in it.

And that is something that every single person will have to wrestle with, because it is that constant pull between what our heart desires to glorify God and also to be in community. So I will back up and say, we were designed for community.

Community is a good thing. So for us to want to have good relationships, to be spoken of well by others is not a bad motivation in and of itself to start. But if that's the starting place and the end place, then that's the issue where we are doing these things to gain the approval, ultimately, of others around us.

And what our end goal should be in all of that is not for others to see us, but for them to see our good works and to glorify our Father who is in heaven and to look beyond us, because we will one day be praised and the next day be criticized.

And I think if we take that criticism that comes and we take it so much to heart and we're like, oh, I'm the worst person ever. Whenever that person the day before was speaking well of us, then we realized there's an issue there.

My heart was not ultimately wanting this person to see the glory of Christ, and I want them to see that. And so if there's anything I've done wrong, of course, I want to go and apologize. All of those things, like if I've sinned against somebody, I want to be in a right place where they're not speaking.

They don't see me as somebody who is just not walking in the fruit of spirit. And at the same time, I want to do that first for the glory of God, because that way, no matter what somebody says, no matter what critiques they may bring against me, I know, OK, before God, my heart was right.

And I did this wanting to please the Lord. And I think that's where it all that's where it all sits. That's where we can see the difference. And others may they may not be able to see what's in our heart, but God can.

And he always does. And so that's where we need to keep that in our mind all the.

Time. I like that. Like when I when I think of that list, too, and I think of the first one helpful, like a biblical proverb for that would be the one that states faithful are the wounds of a friend. Profuse are the kisses of an enemy.

Right. Like the people pleasing person probably wouldn't want to speak the truth when it's necessary to their friend. Right. But it does say faithful are the wounds of a friend. Sometimes you have to tell your friends something that's hard and difficult because you want to be helpful to them in their spiritual growth, in their relationship with Christ.

And you ought to expect, even in the sense of your friendship with them, that they can do the same thing for you. But if you're too busy, people pleasing people, you're not going to necessarily be helpful to your friend in a biblical sense.

Like, for example, Tex Watson was very helpful to Charles Manson when he went to go kill Sharon Tate. You know what I mean? Like when we're thinking in the minds of the cult, he was very accommodating to the will of Charles Manson.

But since Jesus Christ wasn't the center of the relationship, the helpfulness, the accommodation, the caregiving that Tex Watson gave was for a false God and a false gospel and a false hope that ended up damaging.

People. If I'm thinking in the correct vein. Yeah. And I think like I see this all over. So going back to parenting. Right. As a parent, there are some situations you'll be in and you'll be like, OK, this is not good for my family.

It's not safe for my family. I need to not do what all my friends are doing. I feel convicted of this. I want to move away from what what all of my friends are doing, protect my kids. Or you're in a situation and there's something that comes up.

And there have been a couple of times where I have I've actually just sat there and been like, OK, I don't feel like this is the best environment. I need to get out of this. But I'm afraid to say anything.

And even with my kids, there is like a mama bear. I want to protect them. But I'm so afraid of what this friend will think or of what this stranger will think. And that is something that came up. I remember one time we were at like a doctor's office.

It was really rough. We were sent to this L .A. It was in the sketchy part of L .A. We were sent to this doctor's office, referred there, went in and the place was like dirty. It was hot. And doctor's offices are not supposed to be hot.

Jeremy was we were going there for blood work. And I was like, once I got in, they had us do the paperwork, took us back. And I just told Jeremy, I was like, this is the worst. He's like, yeah, we need to leave.

And so here he was. He was trying to usher us out of this this waiting room. And the lady was the ladies were like confused. They're like, why are you leaving? Why are you leaving? And we're like, we need to go.

We need to go. And and then she's like, well, well, the doctor's coming right now. He's coming. You should wait. And I in that moment, I knew I was not about to let them take my blood because I didn't know if this place I was going to get poked with the needle that was going to infect me.

It was dirty. The place was dirty and I needed to get out. But when she said that, I was like, OK, it's fine. We'll wait. We'll wait. Jeremy's like what? Like you your safety is at stake. You'd rather somebody jab you with a dirty needle than to leave a doctor's office.

You don't even know these people, Ginger, like don't be such a people pleaser. And those situations come up in more important ways. Right. There's so many instances where we need to walk away. We need to say, oh, this is not good or this is not healthy.

And maybe it's like a bad church setting where maybe all of your family and friends have gone there, but you realize it's not biblical. Well, are you going to stay because maybe it's more comfortable to not ruffle your family's feathers, even though they're not teaching the word of God?

Right. Like there are times where we need to speak up. We need to stand up. We need to be willing to walk away, even if it will have people looking at us and they don't understand. They may think that you're crazy, but you need to walk in a way that God would have you to as well.

Growing Up on Reality TV and Life Under Social Media Scrutiny

So a question I have for you is I was actually looking at something that kind of aligned side by side is that I noticed, though, in 2007, that's when the first iPhone debuted a year later. That's when 19 Kids and Counting debuted.

Now, it was initially called 19 Kids and Counting. What was the name of the original show? Because there were there weren't 19 at the time.

The very first one was 14 Children and Pregnant Again. That was a documentary. And then they had quite a few other documentaries in between before it started a reality show. I think, see, I can't remember the name.

I think it might have been 17 Kids. Yeah. Because there were a couple of documentaries when there were 16 kids. So I'm pretty sure it was 17 Kids and Counting. But see, that's even me not even be able to remember.

Right. I can't.

Yeah. So the reason why I ask that is that, you know, a lot of what you even talk about in your upbringing in this book and even in your previous book is how your upbringing was very much how the Truman Show effect that your whole life was on television.

And while many people think, why couldn't relate to that? We're now in a social media age where I have my iPhone now in front of me, my iPhone 15 Pro Max, where I can film videos. I've got social media where I can be in front of who knows how many thousands of people.

So all of us have that. But, you know, I think all of us really have that challenge of worrying about what people think about us, whether positive or negative. And you've had a lot of positivity. But then, you know, you had your book come out.

And I remember when I first I first found out about you through your book debuting. So I never really watched the show prior to our interview with you. But, yeah, it was extremely interesting because you had that.

And then you had a couple of years later, after you did your book, you had the Shiny Happy People documentary come out. And, you know, you're having a lot of different people viewing kind of peering into what was your life and your upbringing.

Talk about that. And how does that how how's the whole people pleasing this book and the whole sanctification process look like? How has that worked out for you? And how do you think others who are kind of now growing up in this era where we can all we all kind of have our own reality TV show when it comes to our social media?

Like, what do you think are some practical takeaways about that?

Social Media, Approval, and the Danger of Identity in Public Opinion

Yeah, that is another reason why I wanted to write this book is just because of the age of social media in which we live. I think growing up on reality TV, just always being on from the age of 10 until 27, I was on TV.

And it was something that I knew people were watching. And for, you know, a lot of times just for clean, wholesome TV, or so they thought, you know, it's like you're watching that because TV is so polluted, and there's so much garbage out there, they wanted something that their family could sit down and watch.

So people would watch it. But then, I think as an individual, when you have people looking at you like that, and they're just looking for the entertainment factor, then it puts more pressure on you because you feel like, okay, well, they're expecting me to be perfect.

And I think the show, the show was wholesome. But it also gave a certain sense of us having everything together. And I think that to keep up this perspective, you feel like you always have to have everything just just like so.

And that is the exact same with social media. Now, as we see it, it's all around, like you said, if you take a picture, it's like, oh, I don't have makeup on today. Oh, I need to use a filter. No, like that's that is also there are times where you can play around with that, you know, like, okay, this is just for fun, whatever.

But if you're getting your self worth from that, that's wrong. We cannot be in a place where we feel like this person improves of me, or I got maybe I got an extra 1000 likes today. Wow, that's so great.

Now I've really made it. Well, I think that that's where we have to step back and see, why am I doing this? Why am I putting out content? Is it for other people's approval? Is that where I'm going to feel my best is whenever I have the best views, I have the best hair, and I have all these people plotting me?

Well, then that's wrong. That is sinful, if you're doing it for selfish motives. And I think that we can all fall into that there are times where, you know, we might have good days where we do really well, and we're not caring what other people think.

And then there are other times where it's so so rocks our world, whenever one negative comment comes. And like I said before, if you are looking to other people for your approval and self worth, the second that they are applauding you, they're going to turn around the next minute and have some critique to say.

And so don't let that negatively affect you. And the only way it really will, is that that's where your identity lies in what people are saying about you. And so I think that is the fine line that we all have to walk.

And realizing at the end of the day, social media is such a gift, because we are able to share so much truth so easily. And at the same time, it's also the biggest detriment. And I think we're only going to see the negative effects of that, the more that time rolls on, because I'm still, you know, like, I want to consider myself young, but I don't quite understand tick tock.

We have an account for our podcast, but I'm like, I never go on there because they don't get it. Like the younger crowd who lives on it, they live in a different world of like, it's even faster, you know, than Instagram.

I'm like, this is crazy. And I know a lot of people who spend so many hours a day on it. And it's just not healthy because they're seeking to like, find their approval from it. And so that is something that is a burden on my heart is just to about this.

And for us not to become people pleasers, even in that realm.

The Selfish Side of People Pleasing and Christlike Service

What comes to mind? Yeah, could you flesh something out for me real quick, Ginger? You were talking and just made me think it'd be really good for our listeners to hear this. What's the inherent link between people pleasing and selfishness?

Because when you think about it, they almost sound like at terms that are at odds with one another, because you're trying to be a people pleaser, you're trying to help the other individual. But it seems like when you're explaining this, that people pleasing has a link to selfishness.

It's in the same vein. Could you.

Flesh that out? Yeah, I think this is how I've viewed it, kind of in this way is like, because we have to understand what bad people pleasing is. There's good people pleasing, bad people pleasing. So bad people pleasing is when I'm desperately trying to get something out of someone.

So say this person's well known, I desperately want to be their friend, because then everybody will think, wow, that's so cool, you know, so and so, because they have all these followers. Or maybe it's the other side of it, where it's like, okay, if a friend comes over, well, what can I get from you, you're constantly trying to get something from people and drain them, suck them dry of everything that they have.

And that way you feel satisfied, you feel helped. And that's that is selfish. And that is manipulative. And it's wrong, it's sinful. And so we have to understand what the simple side of that is. And then understand that, okay, the the answer, the key to people pleasing is the other side is people pleasing, like we are to be people pleasers, but we're to do it as unto the Lord.

So stop, stop asking, what can I get out of this, and start loving and serving others from a place where you realize, this is who I am in Christ. And because Christ was, he was the ultimate people pleaser in this way, because he laid down his life to love and to serve those who spit in his face, who didn't, couldn't offer him anything, not asking for anything in return.

And that is where we see in the gospel, what it means to love and serve others well. And when you do that from a place of, okay, God, I want to honor you. I want to glorify you. I want to serve this person, not because of what I can get out of them.