Oct 27, 2026 Show with Everett Henes on “Why Are Young Men Not Choosing the Ministry?”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 27th day of October 2026.

Before I introduce to you our guest and special co-host today, I have some important reminders for you. First of all, please continue to pray for my very dear friend, for many years, Dr. Joseph C. Moorcraft, the third pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia.

Dr. Moorcraft, after recovering from a serious illness and injury that had him hospitalized for months and had him in a physical rehab for months, he finally returned home and returned to his pulpit, returned to this program as a guest.

But then, just very recently, he has fallen ill again, including a torn rotator cuff and some other injury that has caused excruciating pain in his jaw. And this might not seem all that serious, but when you are talking about a man in his 80s, anything like this could be very serious.

So, please pray for the full and speedy recovery of Dr. Joseph C. Moorcraft III. He was supposed to be our guest this Thursday, and we had to replace him as our guest, and we've replaced him with a brother who comes highly recommended by Joe.

He was the one that suggested that I interview this brother, and we will announce who that is later on. Also, I want to remind all men in ministry leadership that you are all invited to the next free biannual Iron Triple Zion Radio Pastors Luncheon at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, on Thursday, May the 6th, 2027, from 11 a .m. to 2 p .m.

And our featured keynote speaker for the very first time, coming to us all the way from England, is Pouyon Mershahi, pastor of Providence Baptist Church in Cheltenham, England, a Reformed Baptist congregation.

Pouyon is an Iranian-born convert out of the Zoroastrian religion to biblical Christianity and Reformed theology. He will be our keynote speaker. I'm very excited about that, and not only is admission free and you're meal free, but everyone in attendance will receive one and possibly two heavy sacks of free brand-new books personally selected by me and donated by very generous Christian publishers all over the United States and United Kingdom.

So if you'd like to register for this free event on Thursday, May 6, 2027, send me an email now and reserve that date, because if you don't reserve it now, who knows what may come up in your future that prevents you from attending.

So please set this date aside. You don't want to miss this event. Send me an email to register to chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give me your full name and the full name of your church or parachurch ministry and its location, and let me know how many men you expect to join you.

And that's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Put in the subject line, Pastors Luncheon 2027, and you will be registered. But today we have both a first-time guest and also a brother returning to the show, this time as a special co-host.

Our first-time guest today is Everett Hennes, and he is pastor of Hillside Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Hillsdale, Michigan. And we are going to be addressing why are young men not choosing the ministry?

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Pastor Everett Hennes.

Thank you, Chris. I'm excited to be here and looking forward to the conversation.

And in the brief period of time that passed when I asked you off the air how to pronounce your last name, I completely forgot. Did I remember it correctly? You did, as a matter of fact. Yep, Hennes is the way we say it.

We like to say it rhymes with tennis. Or Dennis the Menace. All righty. Well, that might have been a nickname for me when I was younger. Hennes the Menace.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Arminian Christians would call you that. But we also have joining us as a special co-host, my friend Jeremy Brandenburg, pastor of Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, located just about five minutes or 10 minutes from where I'm sitting right now.

And it's a joy to have you back on Iron Trip and Zion Radio. Jeremy Brandenburg. Great to be here. Thanks, Chris. Pastor Hennes, first of all, please describe Hillsdale Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Hillsdale, Michigan, for our listeners today.

Hillsdale OPC and Everett Hennes’s Conversion

Yeah, so Hillsdale is a small town. It's about 8 ,000 people. It is home of Hillsdale College, which is well known in the country and around the world. They have various publications that go out. And I was called to pastor or to plant a congregation here in 2008 that was made up of some folks from the community and then some of the college students.

And since that time, we've continued to grow. And the Lord has blessed the ministry. We have about 60 college students in the church, along with our regular congregation. And it's always a good time. It's a like to say it's an ordinary means of grace congregation that focuses on the word, the sacraments and prayer.

And we love to sing the Psalms and the great hymns of the faith and to, you know, work our way through books of the Bible, one verse and one chapter at a time.

If anybody who lives in the Hillsdale, Michigan area would like to visit this church, especially if you do not have a biblically faithful church home already, you may visit their website at hillsdaleopc .org.

Hillsdaleopc .org. We strongly also urge you to recommend this fine congregation to family, friends and loved ones who may live in that area. And also we have a tradition here on Iron Sherp and Zion Radio.

Whenever we have a first time guest, we have that guest provide for our listeners a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include any kind of religious atmosphere in which they were raised, if any, and the kinds of providential circumstances our sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you.

So let's hear a summary of your story.

Yes. So I was born into a non-Christian family. My father was, well, I've never met my biological father, but my stepdad who praised Presbyterian, but did not walk in that. And then my mother was, we say elapsed Roman Catholic, but was an active Wiccan priestess in my younger years.

And so I did not have any exposure to the gospel whatsoever until I turned 13 years old and I met a young guy at school. He had just moved to the area and I befriended him in our eighth grade year and he invited me to a youth group.

And it was a youth group in a four square church, which is a more charismatic denomination, sister churches of the assemblies of God. And it was there that for the first time I was confronted with the truth of the gospel and the Lord used that experience, used that moment to draw me to himself, that I would recognize my sin and trust in Christ.

And that began a rather lengthy time of what I like to call catch up. I remember sitting in church as a teenager and the pastor in the course of his sermon said something to the effect of, but that's about David and Goliath, but you all know what that is.

And then he went on with his sermon and I went, I don't know what that is. And so I just gave myself to studying scripture so that I could at least catch up. And at about the age of 15, I felt a call to the ministry.

And this was not something that pleased my parents. They were actively opposed to that. But, you know, by God's grace, we ended up on good terms. I didn't enter the ministry, at least not in the OPC until I was 32.

So there's a lot of years intervening between 15 and 32 and how the Lord brought me. As I like to say, first I came to Christ and then I came to Calvin. But that's just a joke. Biblical Christianity is my jam.

And so, yeah, the Lord used another family to help me grow in my faith, a family that I'm still to this day close to. And it's been a wonderful journey. I certainly can say looking back on the past, I guess at this point, the past 37 years of walking with the Lord, that I've grown.

I've seen the fruit. I've seen fruit of ministry. Obviously, I faced challenges and difficulties, but God has sustained me all the way through.

Praise God. And what our listeners may not realize is that our guest today, Pastor Everett Hennis, is also the new fourth member of ZZ Top. So I'm just delighted and honored to have him on the show today.

People listening who do not see him have no idea what I'm talking about. But since it is very relative, especially to our topic today, please let us know how you became aware that the Lord had placed a call on your life to enter into pastoral ministry.

Recognizing a Call to Pastoral Ministry

Yeah, I think that's a great question. I was 15 and I had had some opportunity to serve in the church. I started where all young people do, which is just stacking chairs. I would go on to serve and help with various programs.

And right about 15 years old, I started teaching a Bible club on my high school campus. I went to a public high school. So three days a week, we would get together and it was the idea of some of the kids from the youth group that we do this and somebody needed to lead it.

And I was willing. And it just kind of took off. We'd end up with 100 kids crammed into a classroom to hear me teach. I had zero qualifications, but I did finally figure out who David and Goliath were.

And so by God's grace, there was fruit from that. And I think the Lord used that experience of serving. And then just some key adults in my life saying to me, have you considered the ministry? Is this something you might feel the Lord is drawing you to?

You seem to have a love for the church, a love for the Lord, and some gifts that might be useful in that regard. And so I think that those kinds of questions and encouragements from those who were more mature than I was really set my mind thinking in that direction and praying about that.

And it seemed to me that the Lord was confirming that. It was certainly not something that I said, oh, you know, I have a word from God or anything like that. It was more, this seems like God has given me these gifts and these opportunities and there has been some fruit from it.

And so I would say that it's kind of a mixture of being willing to serve and then other adults in my life asking me those questions. And then that confirmation over and over again. There was never somebody that came to me and said, well, not until I went to seminary, right?

There was nobody that ever came to me and said, you know, maybe you shouldn't do this. Everybody had been affirming of that, whether I was in the Foursquare Church, the Assemblies of God, or when I came into the OPC.

There was still an ongoing affirmation that the Lord seemed to have given me a desire, as well as the giftings and the abilities to pursue pastoral ministry.

Praise God. By the way, I just recently became acquainted with a brother who has attended, I believe, at least two of my Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio Pastors luncheons, who was pastoring a Foursquare Church, the Pentecostal denomination founded by Amy Simple McPherson, but he has become theologically Reformed and the church has now become a Reformed Baptist church.

And I plan on having Pastor Tyler on the program at some point in the near future, and I'll let you know when he's on, you might find his story interesting. And it also dawned on me as a little Catholic boy, when I first heard about David and Goliath, and thinking of the animated puppet program, David and Goliath, put out by the Lutheran Church when I was a little kid, that's a totally different story.

But when I discovered the story of David and Goliath, the only rich kid in my neighborhood who lived in the only mansion in my neighborhood, Carl Serrano, whose father's name is also Carl Serrano, a doctor, pediatrician, they had on their massive property a giant bronze statue of David with the sling, and I remember asking about who that was, and I was told about the story of David and Goliath.

I was very young. I was probably six, seven years old. And also, they had a very large bull mastiff dog that they named Goliath. Anyway, Pastor Jeremy Brandenburg, why don't you let our listeners know something about Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle?

Well, we're the OPC, so basically everything Edward said applies. Yeah, we're a small church here in Cumberland Valley in Carlisle. We pull folks from north, south, east, and west, and we're just kind of ordinary.

We've got folks from all walks of life, younger folks, older folks, and we just try to sit under Jesus' Word and serve one another in love. So we are a growing church. People are having babies, new members are coming, so that's exciting.

But just what we say, an ordinary means of grace church.

Amen. If anybody wants more details on Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, you may visit RedeemerOPC .org, RedeemerOPC .org. Well, just to remind our listeners, our theme for the day is, Why are young men not choosing the ministry?

Why Fewer Young Men Are Choosing Ministry

And Pastor Everett, how did you become aware that this is indeed a fact, that there is a dwindling number of young men interested in entering into the ministry? And what kind of source you gained this information from?

Yeah, so for myself, I have a tendency, and I don't mean this in any kind of like I'm looking for a way out at all. I keep an eye on the open pulpit list in the OPC, just to see where our churches are at and where the needs are.

And over the years, I've seen that list grow a bit. We used to have, you know, maybe eight or ten churches, and then it was 13, 14. And now it's gotten as many as 30 congregations that are without pastors.

And that got me just thinking about why, and made it a matter of prayer for our congregation. I think making the need known also lets young men in the church kind of think about those things. And it was that, watching sort of that need also grow, maybe in a sister denomination, the PCA.

But this last year, I served as the moderator of the General Assembly for the OPC. And we had a number of fraternal delegates, and nearly every single one of them, whether they were U .S., South America, Europe, New Zealand, Australia, all of them said the same thing.

We don't have young men for ministry. And I began to ponder that, reflect on, okay, so this isn't an OPC problem exclusively. I started to look online, you know, what about Foursquare, Assemblies of God?

What about Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox? And it turns out that every church is talking about this. That they are talking about a shortage of ministers that has begun, that is growing, and creating some concern within the church.

And so I kind of set out to think a little bit about that, and eventually that led to writing an article that appeared on the Heidel blog, and then it was picked up by the OPC and ran in an abridged version in our New Horizons magazine this past month.

And so that's kind of the answer to the question that I heard the report from denomination after denomination. And then after looking into it deeper, realized, okay, this really is a big and growing issue among churches.

I wouldn't be at all shocked if one of the significant, if not the most serious reason that Roman Catholicism is lacking in candidates for the priesthood is their unbiblical and even anti-biblical enforcement of a celibate clergy that prohibits them from being married.

That's a huge thing for a person, a young person who may have always as a teenager dreamed of one day having a spouse and even children. And wait a minute, what? Can't even have a wife and children? In fact, my oldest brother John, who I believe before he departed this earth and entered into heaven, I believe that he made a credible profession of faith in the true gospel of Jesus Christ while he was dying of emphysema.

But he, as a teenager, was enrolled in one of those schools where Catholic young men go to prepare for the priesthood. It's like a pre-seminary school, and I can't remember the name of the specific type of school that is, old boys school, and they kicked him out because he refused to stop dating girls.

So then he would eventually get married and have kids and so on. But before I have Pastor Jeremy ask a question of his own, what are, in your discoveries, in your research, some of the main factors of a lack of interest among young people in evangelical, Bible-believing churches?

Yeah, so I only brought up the Roman Catholic to simply say that I think this is just a broader cultural trend. And that's, it's hard to say precisely what it is. In talking with pastors, a lot of the things they'll say that it is doesn't really apply.

So some will say, well, it's just the exorbitant cost of preparation, the cost for seminary, which I know something of because I went to seminary, went to Westminster, and it was not cheap. But since then, both Westminsters have near full-ride scholarships for on-campus men who are pursuing ministry.

MidAmerica, another one of our Reformed seminaries, they have told me personally that they have been tracking in the last 20 years, no seminarian has added debt while in seminary. Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary, RPTS, they're committed to helping men get through without debt.

Same for Puritan. I haven't talked with the RTSs, but it became clear that it's not, either these things aren't known to men or that's not the issue. I guess for myself, there's a couple of cultural trends that I see feeding into this.

One is going to just be delayed adolescence. You mentioned something about young men wanting to get married. The marriage age is getting later and later. Most of the time, young men would go to seminary very young, I mean, historically, to prepare for ministry.

But the ones that were a bit older even had had wives. I mean, I went to seminary with a wife and four children. And so that wasn't unusual to have men who were married in seminary in their mid to late 20s.

But that age has been pushed up and up. And maybe even in some circles, even some of our circles, men are almost despairing of the idea of marriage, that it's just not going to happen for them. So I think this kind of delayed adolescence is part of it.

Or sorry, delayed adulthood, but like keeping adolescence as long as possible, I think is part of it. It's come into the church. I think in some ways, I think that older men in the church just aren't asking men, have you considered ministry?

I think that should be a question that we ask our young men. I think it's a question in our church that either myself or one of our ruling elders asks virtually every young man. We're not expecting them all to do it, but we ask them because we want it to be considered.

We want them to at least rule it out as a possibility. And that has opened up a lot of great conversations. Young men who have said, well, you know, I may not be, I don't feel called to that, but I'd certainly love to serve.

And then they've said, how can I prepare for that? So we've taken to helping young men think about what it will mean one day to be a deacon, to be a ruling elder. We also have four young men in our congregation now who are seriously considering the ministry.

And so I am meeting with these young men and shepherding them and discipling them to help them consider whether or not that's true. And then we have opportunity in our congregation for those men to serve.

Anyway, so I'm getting a little far afield here, but I think that there are some cultural things. But one of the things I put my finger on and I think is right is just that young men in our culture right now are in a kind of place of desperation.

There's a lot of reasons for that. Perhaps maybe it's more amplified in certain online communities or circles where they feel as though, what do they call it, being blackpilled. There's just sort of a quasi nihilism.

I mean, it's like nihilism with an iPhone. So it's not really nihilism, but it's a quasi nihilism that there's really no point for it. And that the church really isn't in a place to receive young men the way that it should.

So there's an ongoing kind of feeling of neglect among young men. And I think a real need for the church to answer that, to step up and to encourage and minister, disciple actively and intentionally disciple these young men.

Pastor Jeremy, you have a question?

Yeah, I appreciate your article, Everett. I appreciate it because it's long overdue. And I was not aware of the fact that it was on Heidelblog and then it got pulled over to the New Horizons. But I was glad to see it was there.

You mentioned a few things already, practically, that you guys are doing. And I think it's also important what you said about the financial aspect, because like you pointed out, the seminary that we went to now has fully funded.

You don't pay tuition if you are an on-campus student.

I tried to get that to apply retroactively, they said.

Yeah, that did not happen, right? Not happening. You know, fortunately for me, I had the Post 9 -11 GI Bill, and that was hugely helpful. But it is expensive. And so, you know, I think that tells me that there's folks in the church who are getting behind this.

I was honestly a little bit astounded at how much they were able to fundraise for that particular goal. And the seminary, I think, you know, there's a church component, there's a seminary component, because we believe our pastors do need to go to seminary.

I think one thing we probably should do is be a little bit—the normal path into the ministry is you go to college, you go to seminary, and, you know, you get ministerial training. But I think we also should be open to there are men that will come into the ministry with not that exact pathway.

I like what you said about what your church is doing to, you know, intentionally encourage guys in the congregation. And to ask the question, is there anything else that we should be doing, we can be doing to encourage men to consider the ministry?

Churches Can Encourage Future Ministers Through Discipleship

Yeah, I think there's a lot of things we can be doing, and I think it needs to start young. I really do. I think that it needs to start with the children in our church and them seeing the pastor as an important part of their lives.

We have, I think—and I'm saying we, I'm not including necessarily the OPC in this—but I just think evangelical Christianity over the past 30, 40 years has really offloaded discipleship of young people onto youth pastors, children's church directors, and there's almost this distance from the senior pastor or the solo pastor in their lives.

They don't see that person as important, influential, connecting with them. I just think that it's important for our young people to see the pastor and see the elders as somebody that they look up to, somebody that they might even—and I don't mean this in a build-this-up kind of way—but might even admire.

You know, I have this little ritual every Sunday. We sing our closing song, and I walk down to the door to say goodbye to everybody, and I high-five each kid as I go. They run to the center aisle, you know, we get a little fist bump or high-five, depending on the flu season.

And then, you know, I follow up with them and talk with them. I lead the class for profession of faith and teach the team. We have a midweek where, you know, the adults are being taught by one of our ruling elders, and I'm meeting with the teenagers in the back to answer their questions.

I think that as pastors, we should be intentionally a part of the discipleship of our young people, of our young men especially. Not to say, well, you know, Ministry of Word and Sacrament, which is, by the way, I'm all about that, but not to say, well, it's just the preaching.

That's what, you know, that's my connection with them. I think that, you know, yes, family visitation, but building a connection, a relationship with the young people in the church, I think goes a long way.

And being available to them and, you know, ask, look, I've raised teenagers, I've raised teenage boys, you know, being willing to answer the questions that they have. No matter how much we might think, well, those are silly questions.

You shouldn't be asking those. So I think just engagement with the young men is a big thing. And then giving them opportunities to serve. We used to be a culture where young men had jobs during the summer.

They don't really do that as much anymore. They're not taking that kind of responsibility. I think that's another place where the church can be helpful. There's always something around the church that needs to be done, something among the families that needs to be served.

And I think we should call on our young people to be a part of that, to see, you know, where they're at in their faith and where they're at in their willingness to serve.

Well, we have one follow up, if I can. It stood out to me on our, you know, the OPC doesn't do everything great, but we do some things pretty well. And there was a question on the questionnaire when I did an internship was, does the pastor invite you into his ministry?

And I think you've already described some of the ways that you're, you know, you specifically as a pastor are reaching out to and connecting with the young people, you know, boy and girl, but also the young men in your church.

What do you think about that also as an important dynamic for pastors to be cultivating. With interns, of course, but what about with other, you know, men who are aspiring to the office?

Yeah, I think men who are aspiring to the office, you know, look, I'm all in for discipling all of the young men in our church and caring for, you know, the teenagers, young men, young women, all of them in our congregation.

You know, I love the Apostle Paul's language of spend and be spent for the sake of souls. That's my desire. And I spend a lot of time in visiting with young people in our church, very specifically with young men.

I do invite them into that kind of that approach to my approach to ministry. We talk through texts. I don't mean like phone texts. I mean, passages of scripture. And sometimes I'll ask the young men that I'm meeting with, you know, how do you think something like this should be preached?

Right. You know, so we just read in Lamentations about eating dead babies. How do you think that should be preached? How might you, you know, approach a passage like this? You know, I sit down and read through systematic theologies with young men, biblical theologies, books about, you know, making choices and wisdom.

I try to hit it from every angle I can. But also, you know, when we have a young man who's interested in ministry who comes under care of our session, you know, we give them a Sunday school class to teach.

I sit down and help them write a sermon over the course of the semester so they can exhort at the end of the semester, once in the fall, once in the spring. And, you know, we invite them to presbytery because, you know, why not try to show them why they shouldn't be in the ministry?

No, I'm just kidding. That's a bad joke. But, you know, I just I just try to I try to bring them in and involve them. And part of it for me is and I'm sure the same thing for you, brother. Like the ministry isn't my job that I do on the side or during the day.

And then I go home and I'm just, you know, whoever else I might be. Like this is who I am. My ministry is my life is my ministry. My ministry is my life. People talk about work life balance and mine is very well balanced, I think, you know, as far as all in on both.

And, you know, I think that it's I think it's a great opportunity to encourage young men and to, again, have have good conversations. And a lot of the young men I have conversations with are not going to go into the ministry.

But I can name now we have a unique ministry here in Hillsdale because we've got a lot of college students. I can name 20, 30, any more by now congregations who have young people from us who were not OPC before they came to us are now some are deacons.

Some are elders. Some have trained and are training for the ministry. And so just being intentional about this, we have seen fruit.

And we have to go to our first commercial break. And if you would like to join the conversation with a question of your own, our email address is Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at Gmail dot com.

Give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence. If you live outside the USA, you may remain anonymous if for some reason the question involving men entering into the ministry involves a personal and private matter in your own life.

You may have such a personal question about this that you don't want to identify yourself publicly in regard to it. Perhaps you're a person, a young man, perhaps especially who has entered into the ministry and you now believe that it was a mistake for you personally.

There could be a whole host of reasons why you would prefer to remain anonymous. But please only remain anonymous if it's a personal and private question. That's Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com. Don't go away.

We're going to be right back. I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord and his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession. We embrace congregational church government and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost and the glory of our triune God.

We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of Scripture, loving, encouraging and serving each other as the body of Christ. In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith and we gather around the Lord's table every Sunday.

We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at TRBCCarlisle .org. That's TRBCCarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here.

Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reformed Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

I've had the privilege of opening God's word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my New York debates.

I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled and edified by the Holy Scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net. That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711. That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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