Answering Islam, Pt. 3 || Cultish W/@TheAlMaidahInitiative

Supporting the Ministry and Introducing the Final Segment

Hello everyone, this is Jeremiah Roberts one of the co-hosts here at cultish. I want to give you a heartfelt. Thanks for those of you who have Generously given and supported our ministry the last few months.

It's been very very helpful. We do however need additional support as we head into 2025. Currently, we are operating roughly around 35 to 40 percent of what we need to operate on a monthly basis. So if you've been blessed by our content that we've been able to release to you We'd ask that you would prayerfully consider partnering with us and be part of the mission to impact and change lives.

Go to the cultist show .com. There is a donate tab. You can donate one time. You can become a monthly supporter all that goes directly towards helping us create more content. It'll allow Andrew to support his family as he is also a pastor up in Utah.

And it would allow us to continue this important mission to engage the kingdom of the cults. So all that being said enjoy this next podcast. All right. Welcome back. Ladies and gentlemen to cultish. My name is Jeremiah Roberts one of the co-hosts here.

We're down to three people for the final segment. We are back here with Andrew in your super secret headquarter quarters somewhere up in Utah. We'll just leave it at that James good to have you back good to be back because we have covered a lot When it comes to like the history Muslim culture understanding the distinctions between theology Between Islam Christianity and the final segment.

We're going to talk about okay now. It's like the so what how do you take all? That plethora of fire hose of information. What does this actually look like and with engaging our Muslim friends and neighbors?

So I'm just gonna leave the ball in your court where what's the best starting point in this final part of this discussion?

Christian Duty, Clear Communication, and Expectation of the Nations

So I think. You know, first of all, we just got to think as Christians is what our duty is to non-believers in general. And I think a lot of Muslims who you're here about the work I'm doing. Asked a question.

Why are you so focused on Islam? What about you know, atheist agnostics and you know Mormons or whatever and you know. My answer that question is I love all of that. I want to see all of those people meet Jesus and become Christians.

But I think there's a particular deficiency between Christianity and the Muslim world and Islam is the largest non-christian worldview on the planet. So Muslims need the gospel not because Muslims are uniquely bad.

But because they're just like everyone else their image bearers of God and they are sinners. Just like you am just like you are. Just like I am. Hey, we've been recording all day you get a pass. Yeah in England we say it that way.

And and so we should you know, we should have this. We have this duty as Christians to accurately communicate what we believe in a way that makes sense to Muslims and you know and Understanding Islam understand the worldview we're speaking to you is something that's important because the Bible does that.

When the New Testament came it came in coiny Greek the language of the common people so people could understand it. So We need we can be you know speaking clearly enough but if we're not speaking the language someone actually understands then.

Then we're not going to be effective. Of course God can still show up. God doesn't need us to communicate clearly to speak through our words. But we should be aiming to speak clearly because that's what God wants from us.

First of all, right? No, that's kind of the it's kind of the first starting point there. And then, you know secondly, we should have expectations. If you look at Psalm 72 it talks about the reign of the Messiah and it says May he have dominion from sea to sea from the river to the ends of the earth.

May all kings bow down before him and all nations serve him. May the kings of Sheba and Seba bring gifts. May desert tribes bow down before him. May the you know, the coastlands of Tarshish render him tribute so the picture of the world the Psalms are painting is a picture where the Nations that are currently Muslim are one day serving Jesus as King.

Hmm right and we Might get to have a part to play in what God is doing in the world. Yeah, I mean that's what's exciting about this to me. I believe God's gonna do things in the Muslim world and I want to be part of the magic quite frankly and I think you should too because it's really Interesting and it's much more fun than you realize.

Hmm.

No, I would agree. I think that um, you know, you're you're seeing it's very easy, man it's just like I feel like I'm sort of going back and sort of like my own story and journey like being introduced to like Islam by way of like fear and terror because literally it was like 9 -11 and the war in terror and being a fan of that and then having then going into a The Middle East on a mission trip just a few years later.

Having all sort of my confirmation biases by Western media and having to kind of really Rip those sort of off of me to really truly engage and like love them as people who just needed The gospel to serve and to love them and I think that's the biggest thing, you know.

And I think you know one of my favorite passages in first John when it says, you know Perfect love cast out fear for the one who fears has not been perfected in love. And I think that's and this is not just Islam.

This is the case with any Category any group where you don't are you in the flesh? But you have to truly love them because if salvation is truly of grace. If it's truly an act of grace and when we didn't do anything to obtain it that should give us Humility grace and compassion to be able to reach out to those who see differently and understand that if it wasn't for the grace of God, I'll be another side of the conversation.

So, um, so yeah, I'm very intrigued with this. So really in your dialogues and I feel like it's one of those things too that probably evolves. You know when you get in the you get in the like the first conversation with someone it's like, okay, what just happened?

I feel like I was ring rust and you're overthinking stuff and then you kind of go back. You go more you get like confident the next time like when you first started like what was your starting point? And was there any and what did you end up evolving or changing?

What did you learn from your very first experiences?

Learning to Listen in Muslim Student Association Conversations

Yeah, so basically my starting point after I listened through Sahih al-bukhari and sahih Muslim the two main sort of, you know, hadith collections. Yeah, I decided to crash the Muslim Student Association at the University of Washington.

I was like college age, but I didn't go to college. My wife was a UW student. So I use that as an excuse to just kind of you know Walk in and I was I walked in like super awkwardly partway through one of the meetings and everybody saw me come in.

So, you know everybody therefore, you know asked me why I was there, but one guy, you know offered me a seat invited me back and then he kept inviting me back and I just kind of kept going and I ended up going for six years became the longest-standing member of the MSA at the University of Washington as neither a Muslim or a student and I never hid the fact that I was Christian and I was received very warmly.

And my goal in that was not to kind of like go stir up trouble in the meetings. But to go like listen to learn things and then make one-on-one. Friendships and see where those conversations went in a one-on-one.

You know setting and I think early on my kind of my habit was just kind of kind of want to argue about the sources. To some you know to some extent. Yeah, and I kind of like you would skip over the individual sometime in an exchange for kind of like, you know conversations about the sources.

But as I started to realize that most Muslims aren't getting their information from you know, the sources but rather their their leaders. What I was trying to do more than that was just kind of draw out how the person I was talking to Really thought about the world.

Yeah, and what I realized is that Christians spend a lot of time Trying to answer questions that Muslims are not asking. Hmm but there are questions Muslims are asking that the Bible has answers to and By not talking about those types of things then, you know, we're not you know engaging with Muslims very well.

Yeah, Andrew you you've got a couple more minutes here. You may have to bounce that early on this episode. We've been here all day. I'm gonna kind of let you sort of segue that like run the ship the last 15 minutes or so that you have what comes to mind when it comes to dialogue and with everything that James is talking about so far in this segment.

Seeing Muslims as Image Bearers and Building Trust One-on-One

Yeah, like when you're talking about Psalm 72 it makes me almost think about like the sovereignty of God like we're getting a picture of the future in a sense and you're saying If I'm trusting in God and not leaning in my own understanding.

What I should see is people that are made in the image of God that need a savior and I need to just be faithful In the proclamation of the gospel to these people. I shouldn't see them as a people group that I fear because one day as God words that God's Word says they're gonna be worshiping the king and I can play a part in that.

And I think that's such a beautiful way to think about Evangelism in general and that's great, man. I love that. So in terms of you know, speaking with Muslims and getting on that individual basis with them How do you break through?

Kind of the the Muslim barrier or the shell because even in Mormon evangelism you can kind of get into scripted conversations. But there's a way to kind of break through that and ask the person probing questions in order to try to find out what they're truly thinking and.

To get on that one-on-one level with them. Like how do you get through that? Yeah, so it's mostly time. For the most part, but the more you the more they can kind of tell you actually understand what they're talking about.

The easier it is to kind of, you know build trust with people.

And.

So and that's all I'm really trying to do is I'm trying to build, you know. Meaningful trustful relationships, you know with people where I'm honest about what I believe. So, you know. The wrong way to do kind of, you know, friendship evangelism is.

You're kind of sneaky about it, right? So you're really nice to somebody and you kind of wait for them to have some sort of existential crisis. Right, um, I'm I try and start all my relationships is kind of on the nose as possible about oh I'm interested in what you believe because I'm you know, I take religion seriously as well.

And that's part of my life. How is it part of your life kind of thing, right? So you want to be upfront about. You know who you are and what you believe in and not trying to kind of like earn the right to you know.

Say something important later, but don't be honest. Don't be on a script yourself, right? Don't be trying to kind of get to certain conversation points. Be prepared to follow the conversation wherever it goes and take them seriously as an individual.

Yeah, and usually it's these kind of like conversations that go to like 3 a .m where you start to learn what people like actually think because there's this. There's there's this general there's a general sense of what they think they're supposed to say to you when everyone's watching.

You know what they think they're supposed to say to you and no one's watching and then what they actually want to say to you.

Later on. Oh, it's like a Nicodemus conversation. He meets with Jesus at night because he didn't want to see anyone else with him.

Yes, exactly. And that's exact. That's exactly it. Um, so it's very because everything all their information and all their. You're all the kind of like social structure happens around this massive kind of Nebulous mob of people that everyone loves and doesn't trust at the same time.

Yeah, um, you've got to be able to build a one-on-one relationship with people. To the point that they trust you and you know, you trust them to some extent. Yeah, and That's where you can kind of really get to the bottom what people You know are dealing with and then when you have the opportunity to speak what the Bible says into those situations.

You know you speak that. Mm-hmm.

Also, let me ask you this as well, too. I mean, we're also talking about a couple dues. I think there's also a couple don'ts this would apply and I'll give you a couple examples of Mormonism. I think when you're doing like Mormon evangelism and Andrew you could attest to this.

There are a lot a lot of rabbit rabbit trails you can go down. You can start talking about polygamy you can start talking about the Mormon undergarments. You can talk about what's going on the temple.

You can talk about. Oh, well Joseph Smith and Carthage jail. He didn't die as a martyr. He died in a gunfight shooting back like there's a lot of things that you could like throw out there. That would just be a powder keg that yeah, you're gonna get a reaction.

But is that really where you want to leave them like no like in that case you stay focused on the essential Who is God who is Jesus even like talking about in our last episode, right? So are there are there any like dangers or like pet falls or rabbit trails?

You could go down which might be counterproductive or is that kind of very depending on the person you're talking to it.

Depends on the person what I would say is try and let them dictate the rabbit trails. Um because for example, right if you're talking to You know a Muslim about polygamy for example, right? I'm just like with Mormonism polygamy is a thing in Islam.

And if you talk to somebody who has never known anybody who's practiced polygamy and you say yeah The Quran teaches polygamy that's so backwards. Then they're just gonna get defensive because you don't understand what you're talking about.

You've never met my family. You're misrepresenting what we believe that's not really what we're focused on. There's a time and place for that for specific reason. That's not happening now. Mm-hmm, right it is happening now.

Yeah, but it's not like crazy widespread, right? So if you're gonna get onto that rabbit trail That's a rabbit trail in one circumstance whereas Somebody who grew up in a polygamous family and is hurt by that That might be what they actually want to talk about.

Mm-hmm.

And so you're trying to see what the person you're talking to is actually dealing with and. You apply the gospel there. Yeah, right. You're not trying to answer the questions. They're not asking. Answer the questions.

They are asking. And those questions that they are asking.

Always lead to Jesus because all roads lead to Jesus. Yes. Could you get the example? Maybe I want to get some examples that people can see like case studies when we're on the phone. I think it's on the phone initially.

You're talking about story of a of a Muslim woman and She you had engagement but like you had knowledge of like her cultural or her culture her like where she came from and that led to a Catalyst to listen to you further, you know, I'm referring to.

I could be there could be a few things.

But let me let me think of some let me kind of give you a couple of examples, yeah some case studies so so for example. We and I knew a you know, Saudi a woman who was in the Seattle area and. This woman had you know children and.

She was.

Like talking to us about the difficulties of being a parent and She and in her mindset, you know the fitra everyone's born pure. So what the heck am I doing wrong that all my children are sinners and a bit in misbehaving in all these different ways.

So from there, we'll be able to say show, you know Mark chapter 7 where Jesus says evil comes out from within a person's heart and then she says yes. This is this is true. I know this is true because all my kids have been raised the same way yet They're all different.

What Jesus is saying here is right. Mm-hmm, and Then that opens the door for her to ask us more things about that she's curious about like, you know does Christianity allow for Polygamy and then the answer is, you know, no, it doesn't allow for polygamy.

And this is why that the marriage is supposed to be, you know. One man and one woman for life as a representation of God's love and loyalty to his people. That's exclusive and unique. And so things like that just kind of keep coming up and eventually it comes to the point where she asks Okay, every time somebody we see people leaving the mosque. They look miserable and every time I See them leaving the church.

They look.

Happy, so.

What's the difference? Why is you know, why are things like this? So Um, you know we got to get to explain that, you know while Islam teaches that Allah is merciful You don't Know for sure if you're gonna receive that mercy, right?

There's ambiguity about the Day of Judgment and you're scared of the Day of Judgment. So, you know religion there's always this kind of burden you're carrying.

Yeah.

And so she said and it whereas first John You know forces perfect love casts out fear because fear has to do with punishment and someone who fears has not been perfected in love.

Yeah.

So as Christians, we believe that Jesus died for us that we don't have to be afraid of Judgment Day because all our sins are taken care of and. Then she says, you know I was always told by my parents that I should believe that God loves me and not worry about going to hell.

But I'm afraid.

To.

You know, I'm afraid to read the Quran more because what if I find out that I haven't done enough? I find out that I'm gonna be judged and Then I have to live the rest of my life in fear. Mm-hmm. And at that point I'm able to say to her look Um, you know, you're right.

Your dad's right that he's wrong about why he's right. Hmm. So he's striving his way towards this sort of unknown God which he kind of hopes exists within Islam, but does not and.

What you.

Believe is unknown. This is what I proclaim to you. Mm-hmm. And this is what the Word of God is. Mm-hmm. And then she basically says oh, this is a lot. Let me take a Bible back with me. To Saudi Arabia and then she then you know.

It's kind of it's kind of reading this over there and she connects with one of her old friends who she thinks is maybe more open-minded than other friends and She asked hey, I've been having a hard time with Islam.

But when I read the Bible, it's starting to make sense to me what do you think and this friend says don't tell anyone this but I've secretly been Christian for you know, five years now and you should be too.

And so it was just starting with this conversation about parenting. That led from one thing to another another that allowed her to ask more questions and no point are we being pushy or manipulative or?

Trying to do that. We're just trying to apply the Bible to her life and show how those dots connect and eventually that leads to her With you know divine intervention meeting meeting Jesus for real. Mm-hmm.

Wow.

Andrew. We're in the last segment here, and I'm see you. What's on your mind or you're kind of in the last segment here before you got to take off? What will come to mind for you then?

Friendship Evangelism, Open Doors, and Everyday Encounters

Well, I'm praise God. That's awesome. So, how do you get into the situations to be able to meet these people right? It's like do we need to do what you did and go to like a college even if we don't attend that college and you Just sit in a Muslim associated Association meetings or something like that.

Like how do we get into that position because it sounds like I'm sure it's possible to get into like public evangelism or street evangelism with Muslims but it sounds like the context with a Muslim person might be a little bit different than the Context of when I go out to to BYU and Mormons want to talk to me about these things.

It sounds like Muslims are just a little bit more different, right? How do we get?

So the first thing I would say is ask God for open eyes and opportunities. Amen. And You know be and and just you know, wherever you go, right. So you can go to like events, right? You could go to. You could go to a Muslim event for sure.

And one of the best things you can do is kind of find like cultural events like, you know. Sometimes like for example, the Seattle Arab Festival. It's a great place to make friends. Stand-up comedy is a good way to go meet people.

Sometimes you have Muslim comedians or you know somebody with a Middle Eastern name. It's a great way to connect with people. So and restaurants that serve halal food or hookah lounges, you know. You know switch the type of tobacco you're inhaling to a different type and you suddenly have the opportunity to meet.

Yeah. And just kind of be in the places where people are and just gonna say hi to people and you know. Ask them how they're doing like just on my way to Apologia yesterday. I Stopped at cartel coffee and just as I was waiting for my friend to get the bathroom.

I See three Middle Eastern looking guys and I'm like, hey, are you guys Saudi and they're like no no. We're from Amman and we had you know, we have a conversation there. I you know kind of say how's your time in America been so far?

How do you like Arizona? We love it. It's the same weather as our home country, you know. I didn't really lead to anything. There and then and lots of my conversations don't go anywhere and that's fine.

Yeah, right all you're doing is putting yourself out there taking an interest in people and Let the conversations and just be in a position to use you if it that way God. You can use you to speak into people's lives.

Yeah. Um, so just be prepared to walk through the doors that God opens, right?

So.

That might be you know, it might be hey I have we have this event that's coming up or it might be hey a bunch Of us are having a barbecue. Do you want to come or hey? I've been learning a little bit about the Muslim world recently.

I don't know any Muslims here in Salt Lake City. Could I get coffee and ask you some questions about you know, what you believe. Because I'm really curious and Generally Muslims are much more open to having these conversations than the average secular, you know American would be at this point.

So is it you just be friendly and honest and curious and you know on on the Lookout for people you could talk to and I really believe that if you go in with that attitude God will send you people.

Yeah, you know, there's a lot of good coffee shops and even the coffee shops don't have to have a dramatic Origin story is like being a byproduct of a giant war, right? Hey, you could utilize that story as a catalyst to even like hey, do you know the story of like how this one?

War happened this coffee shop started. No. Okay. So one thing that create crazy. It's one thing I did with on that note. Actually, I was in an ice cream store in Portland and there were two, you know, Muslim ladies sort of Arab ladies behind me.

One was in her 50s one was in her 20s and.

I.

They found out I was in town for Christian conference. I made small talk. I just like hey, are you guys local? What do you recommend from this place? Yeah, again, no, no, no time that's gonna go anywhere.

Then when they find out that I'm in town for Christian conference I really feel the need to make a good impression. Yeah at that point. So when we got to the counter, I bought that ice cream for them and they said oh, that's so nice.

When did you why did you do this? I said firstly is a Christian. I want to make sure Muslims in the country. I live in a treated well and Feel like they have a good home here. Yeah, secondly the Islamic Golden Age gave us ice cream.

So this is my thank you for that. Then they both lost really. Oh. Then five minutes later the daughter came out and said to me Thank you so much for what you did. I didn't say this in front of my mom's it's still a sore subject, but I became a Christian a year ago.

And what you did helps me in my relationship with my mom.

Wow, whoa.

It's God.

So it's just like just by having open eyes for this stuff and trusting that God will actually show up when you put yourself out. There I've had so many crazy things happen like Like one of like one of my closest friends now who is Was a Muslim who lost his faith while living in Saudi Arabia was super serious about it, too and then just you know happened to me a kind of Christian uber driver and sort of you know expressed that he had some curiosity and questions about Christianity and then You know the uber driver connected us.

And now he's one of the most new valuable friends and ministry partners that I have. Hmm. So just you know, I Can't tell you how to make that happen because I can't make that happen. I didn't make this happen myself.

What I have done.

Yeah.

Is trust that God can show up put myself out there pray for opportunities and been prepared to faithfully do what I think God wants Me to do in those situations. Yeah, and when I say God what God wants me to do I'm not talking about some like magical voice.

I'm talking about things the Bible tells us to do. Love your neighbor. Show hospitality to strangers invest in people disciple people. Be be a friend to people, right? That's what the Bible asks for us.

And if we're prepared and speak the truth to people and If we do all that and we're faithful with what God wants us to do, we'll see amazing things happen. Yeah.

Hmm. Wow, that's that's good. I'm trying to think of like the next question to sort of ask I mean, I think a lot well Let me ask this so again a lot of a lot of people are looking at Ways to like bridge the gap, you know with their friend who's Muslim and so I mean a lot of things are you know?

Relational and things like that. And like I said the example in the coffee shop is just that's awesome. And that's just something you're gonna have to figure out, you know with where you are. And how are you relatable?

Like how do you how do you create small talk with someone? Like how do you just kind of how do you? Like how do you socialize like just utilize that like but be yourself, you know but I think from like a theological standpoint to when it comes to like when you kind of break that ice and the Conversation comes up about you know Christianity and and that stuff and obviously you want to have the conversation be organic.

Like Debbie you see have you seen? Like where it kind of does there a tendency where it gravitates one way or the other like in last episode? We were talking about you know Corruption of the Bible or is it does it kind of just vary off the conversation?

It varies a lot.

Um, I find myself having a lot of conversations about human nature because that just kind of impacts everything. So, you know so closely. But but basically how I think about this. Imagine a Venn diagram.

You've got to you've got two circles. Or maybe even three of you're committed to this.

Yeah.

First is your knowledge of the whole Council of God in the Bible right then it's your knowledge of them as an individual and maybe you have a knowledge of Islam as well and. As your knowledge of the Bible grows and as your knowledge of the individual grows.

Your those circles will start to overlap more and more and you'll have more to talk about with that person. Yeah, and then if you have if you add the sort of knowledge of Islam to that as well, which again you don't need.

But it can be helpful. You have even more ways you can you know, talk about this sort of stuff. Yeah, right without again without having to look for okay. I'm waiting for my moment to do this. You're being a genuine friend to that person.

Yeah, and a genuine disciple of Jesus and as as you grow in both those things inevitably you will have points of conversation. Hmm but human nature has been especially great because. It's just an easy thing that we kind of disagree on that affects everything.

Yeah, so you're so for example, right I was. A few years ago and in the beginning of 2020 I'd run out of coffee at home. So I decided to go to Starbucks. And and all my kids wanted to come with me and only in the end only my four-year-old daughter came.

Yeah, and we're sitting in where we're in the line and my daughter says daddy. Let's sit down. I'm like, okay fine. Go get us a table so she goes and gets the one table that has one chair and there's a woman on the table next to us in a hoodie with headphones and I Say excuse me.

Is this chair free? Yeah, go ahead. So I sit down with my four-year-old daughter and she says daddy make friends. So I'm like, all right fine, what are you studying English? Oh great. Where are you from Saudi Arabia?

Oh great Intimid Saudi and she's like, how do you know Arabic? I said I run a non-profit that facilitates friendship and worldview conversations between Christians and Muslims. And she says is that the al-maida initiative?

I've heard of that. I'm like, yes. So she said I actually have a bunch of questions for you. When can we talk? Mmm, I'm so we got coffee the next week and she asked me. So my question is this are you trying to help people make friends?

Are you trying to change people's religion? So yes, and She says I don't know why you do that because all religions teach the same thing basically and. So I said, okay, I can see why you'd say that. Well, let me explain why that's not true.

If you know so in Islam you believe in the fitra right this that people are all born pure. She said yeah, I believe that whereas in. In the Bible mark 7 says evil comes out from within a person's heart.

Yeah, and and so. And and so she and so I said, okay, this is why it's important imagine for a moment. That what Jesus is saying is true, but you grew up in a society where you where you're taught that everyone's born good.

What would that do to you? You'd look at everyone else around you and think they have their lives together. And then but then you'd. But then you'd you know look at yourself and think that you that you have a darkness in you that you can't explain.

Yeah, and you think that you're broken in a way that not everyone else is and she says you've just described my entire life. So if my heart is the problem, what's the solution. Wow, right? So the human nature is the window in and it is like very consistently.

Um.

Recently my favorite window in has honestly been like Israel and Gaza. I.

Was just gonna I was just gonna ask you about that. Um, can I say something? I mean, this is I. Remember like I the company I work for it's they sell like a tactical gear and stuff like that. So we go so when Israel happened.

It was just nuts like we went from like just me and like a one-week lead time to like five or six weeks. Just because if everyone saw was going on the news like we got to buy this gear. But um, like it would just was amazing to see.

Everyone would just react just like that. You had a lot of Christians who you know have a lot of you know, An eschatology that would favor be more favorable toward towards Israel. And but I feel like a and it was they can do that but I just it felt like I was watching I had like this flood of memories of just like a lot of what I believed in early in the early 2000s of.

And I was like I see I was seeing this like regurgitating that there's nothing new under the Sun. My question would be for that you talk about the opportunity. How did the friends that you're in proximity to and then these dialogues?

What was their initial reaction to like Israel Palestine? And how did you? How did you how did you facilitate that or respond to that or navigate those dialogues? Yes, everyone kind of lost their minds.