Christians vs New Agers Who Wins This Debate?

The Debate Breaks Down Because No One Defines the Terms

It's the Christians versus the New Agers in this video. Watch this.

So I feel like it's not the devil. I don't know how the devil was brought into the conversation. I didn't know he was present.

Oh yeah, he is.

Because, oh, hilarious. Because I don't work for the devil. I work for God. We get God-given gifts.

Will this conversation be doomed from the start? See, most Christians don't realize they're walking into a minefield when they engage New Agers. And I'm gonna break down exactly how this falls apart in this conversation, and then I'll explain just what to do to have way better conversations on this topic.

Are you ready? Let's get right into it. Welcome back to Wise Disciple. My name is Nate, and I'm helping you become the effective Christian that Jesus wants you to be. Before I jumped into this ministry full-time, I was a pastor and a debate teacher, and it's from that unique experience that I make these kinds of videos.

Make sure to like, sub, and share this one around, but only if it helps you.

And the first prompt is, prayer and manifestation are two sides of the same coin.

Okay.

If, you know, coming in cold to this video, I'm immediately guessing that this conversation will be incredibly unproductive. Not because I have anything against these ladies at all. I don't know what's gonna happen here fully, but I've seen this kind of thing too many times.

This is what happens just about every single time discussions like this take place. People do not talk to each other. They talk past each other in today's culture. And the only way to rectify this problem of communication is to follow some principles of debate.

And I'll explain more about what I mean in a moment, but let's see what happens.

It started. So I believe that there are two spiritual forces. There's either God or there's the devil. And I believe you can get your power from either one. God gives us good gifts. He gives good gifts to his children.

The enemy also gives gifts to his children as well. So I believe that you either pray to God or you submit to the devil and then he just gives you what you want based on that. So I don't think it's the same thing.

Yeah, I would say that I think there's a creator creation distinction. I think that manifestation typically centers the universe or oneself, whereas prayer centers the Lord Jesus Christ.

Right.

Wow.

Yeah.

These ladies clearly have their heads on straight and they're familiar with the scripture. Praise the Lord, right? They have a solid foundation. And look, you know, even now they're starting to do what they should be doing, which is to identify key terms.

I don't know if you caught it, but the Christian ladies are on the right side of the video and then the new agers on the left side of the video. But the question that should be answered as you have this kind of conversation is, well, what is manifestation, right?

Define it. What is prayer? You know, these are definitional questions that need to be answered before they start engaging each other. Because, you know, again, I mean, this is the concern that I have as a former debate teacher.

If they do not define key terms at the outset, these ladies will not be talking about the same thing while they're claiming to be talking about the same thing. You know what I mean? Both of these ladies, both of these groups need to define the terms and then come to an agreement about them so that this conversation can be productive and they can truly clash.

Okay, and I didn't know that we worked for the devil. That's hilarious. Because the misconception that spirituality is directly connected to the devil's work is really hilarious because the devil is a projection placed upon people who don't know that we still operate within love.

We talk to God and the God within us. So we pray to God, we give God thanks. God is the glory for the story and God is within all of us. So I feel as if prayer, you're praying to God and when the manifestation, you still have to do the work because faith without work is dead.

So to bring it into physical manifestation, you have to walk through the door of value that God opened for you. So when you pray to God, you give thanks in advance because you know that God is going to bestow you.

God is going to show you good grace. So I feel like if it's not the devil, I don't know how the devil was brought into the conversation. I didn't know he was present.

Oh yeah, he is.

Because

Yeah, so this is exactly what I predicted. Because there were no clear definition of terms at the outset and there is certainly no shared source of authority in terms of data to appeal to, we have essentially two types of ladies who have fully formed worldviews, who are basically just talking about their own beliefs.

So you can see this lady on the New Age side is now just explaining her worldview and then laughing about what the Christian side just said. This is why so many Christians don't know how to engage New Age folks.

It's because the figurative table has never been set properly so that two different positions can clash. And so watch this, you know, this is just going to be a lot of words. Eventually emotions are going to get all involved and wrapped up in this and this will probably go nowhere productive, unfortunately.

Claims Without Evidence and the Problem of Gish Galloping

Yeah, hilarious. Because I don't work for the devil, I work for God. We get God-given gifts and it's come from a higher self and the universe is, somehow it does get tied into it and I do understand how it can seem like it'd be, we sometimes take God out of it.

However, that's one of the things with spirituality has to have different levels. Just how Christianity projects upon us as we're doing the devil work. Some people in spirituality utilize the universe, but the universe is still within all of us because it's the universe.

Is she saying the universe? That's an interesting pronunciation.

Everything outside of you is also within you. So just like God is, so it's a separate, but the same within itself. So we don't call onto the devil. We don't do the devil's work. I feel like prayer, you're still praying to God.

That's only somebody's perception of what spirituality is and manifestation. We don't leave God out of it because God is within us. So if you leave out God, you're leaving out yourself.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

Just so we're all on the same page.

Okay.

Here's what just happened. These ladies were asked a question and they answered it. When they answered the question, they basically made claims that are rooted in their fully formed worldview.

Okay.

And so the Christians said that prayer is not manifestation.

Okay.

That's one of the claims, right? And also manifestation is self-centering, which is antithetical to Christianity.

Why?

Because Christianity is about dying to self and following after Jesus.

Okay.

Fair enough. You know, and I agree with all of that. Praise the Lord, right? Here's the problem. The problem is the new agers get to come back and make up their own claims, right? So this lady just said, well, the devil is a projection.

The devil is not real.

Okay.

That's a claim, but also prayer is manifestation and manifestation is prayer. That's another claim. You see what I mean? And scripture is thrown around quickly, but what we have essentially here is just a bunch of claims being thrown around with no data or warrant to justify any of them.

So I'm using terms in the debate community that comprise the parts of an argument here, right? According to the Tolman model, an argument consists of three things, claim, data, and warrant. And that's what I'm trying to show you here.

There are no arguments being made in this discussion, only claims. And even if data or evidence is cited to support any of these claims, it's unclear how to properly assess the particular evidences that are used.

So for example, if the new agers quote the Bible, you know, is that evidence to support their view? Well, not if they misinterpret the Bible, not if they improperly use the scripture to support themselves, right?

But if the Christians cite the Bible, you know, the new agers are gonna come back and say the same thing. Well, you guys are improperly using the scripture to support yourselves. You see what I mean? So what I'm trying to do here is I'm trying to paint this picture for you, right?

Here's what's going on. You have essentially two houses in this particular video. The first house is built on rock. The second house is built on sand. Each of these members of these houses, they're going at it describing the way that their houses are uniquely designed.

But what they should be doing is identifying the ground upon which these houses stand. Because that's where the key distinctions and the important differences are discovered. You with me so far? And that's not what these ladies are doing, unfortunately.

And the next prompt is, I believe the concept of the universe is just another way of describing God.

I don't know if you can see that, but the Christian ladies are all having thumbs down, which indicates that this is a no from the Christian side. The new agers are all thumbs up, which means they affirm what was just stated.

The Creator-Creation Distinction and General Revelation

Yeah, again, I think this is the creator creation distinction. I think that God is the God over the universe. And the scriptures actually tell us, Psalm 19 one says that the universe tells of God's glory.

It pours forth his goodness. Romans 1 18 tells us that people who reject God is a wicked because he's actually made it plain to them through nature, through beauty, through the world, through the universe that he exists.

I think that our world is too intelligently designed to reject that a God created it and to not submit to him. I think it's, I think it's haughty and arrogant.

Yeah, I do. Yeah.

Love it.

She's awesome. And I'm proud of her, you know, because she knows her scripture. However, again, right? As well-meaning as her response is, she's not setting herself up well to clash with her interlocutors because watch this, whoever is about to speak next is simply going to double down on expressing their fully formed worldview.

And then they're going to claim that it's essentially similar to what this Christian lady just said.

Actually really agree with you. I think that I find the world to be so beautiful. And I do believe that there is no chance in this life that this universe was not created by the higher power. And I think that's where this kind of conversation is important because we are bridging this gap of like, I want you to understand that like, I don't, I'm getting emotional because I feel a lot of like hate from that side of the room.

And I feel a lot of love for y 'all because I am on your side. I really do believe.

You see?

And there's the emotions, right? Golly, man, it's such a shame. You know, you wish that if this were a hike, these ladies would be able to scale the mountain of disagreement between them and sort of meet at the top.

You know what I mean? But they're both still standing at the base of their particular sides of the mountain. And that's a, that's a shame. I'm really using a lot of illustrations today. I don't, I'm not sure why.

I'm in a mood, but hopefully, you know, the illustrations help. You know what I mean? Because in a moment, I'm going to show you how to have more productive conversations in this type of space. And that's the whole point of this video anyway, right?

This universe is so beautiful. And I really do believe that it was created by someone. I think that it feels like when I'm praying, I actually pray. And funny enough, I go to church every single week.

I love worship. I love the gathering element of it. And I don't always go to the churches that you all may love or agree with. But I basically just believe that this universe was created for all of us.

It is so beautiful and was created by somebody. I think we actually believe in a lot of the same things. So it does feel like we're speaking about God in the universe and just calling Him at different things.

You know, the other thing that this type of discussion obscures is the gish galloping that takes place, you know, in a lot of these kinds of discussions, right? So gish galloping refers to just dropping all these kinds of claims, one right after another, right after another, you know, just assertion after assertion, after assertion.

To the point where once this lady is done speaking, it seems like she's provided some kind of substantive response to the Christian. When in reality, she's made egregious errors in logic here, but she likely won't get called out on all of it because she gish galloped through multiple claims and people won't, at the end of it, remember everything that she said.

Jesus Is the Only Way to Salvation

And the next prompt is, Jesus is the only way to salvation.

Amen.

All the Christians say yes. Most of the new agers say no. Oh, no, wait, there is one Christian lady at the very end who does not say yes. Interesting. Interesting.

It's like one of these.

It's like, I just, that's, I, is this weird that I find that kind of blasphemous, like?

Yes.

Like, who are we to even say what salvation is? Who are we to even say how anyone gets there? We cannot speak for God. All you, all we can do is try to have a relationship and understand what our assignment is.

But I could never, I could never put that judgment yes, no.

So confused. You know, we cannot speak for God, but can God speak for himself though? John 14, six, Jesus said to him, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me.

No one comes to the father except through me. Is that not clear what Jesus is referring to? Does this make Jesus blasphemous? I don't understand. I mean, you know, these new age ladies say that they affirm Christianity.

I assume that means that they affirm Jesus, you know, that the things that Jesus said. So what does this lady make of Jesus' own words in John 14, six? Or how about this? John 3, 16, right?

Look at this.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. But here's where it gets interesting. Verse 17, for God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only son of God. These are heavy words. We didn't come up with this.

Christians did not write this. This came directly from Jesus' mouth. Is there some explanation given by these new agers to make Jesus say what he's not saying here? You know, I just, I, okay. I don't understand this line of thought and anybody engaging folks like this who claim Christianity, what we should do is invite them to provide their own exegesis of passages like this.

What do they do with John 3, 17 to 18 specifically? You know?

Leaving Christianity, Authentic Selfhood, and “Internal Salvation”

I feel as if once I left Christianity and left Christianity, my relationship with God became stronger and I realized that heaven is not something outside of yourself, not anything in the sky. Heaven on earth is the inside job and hell is not nothing below earth, is hell is on earth and hell can be within your lower self when you allow yourself to live in a space of a cognitive dissonance, a space where you're not being accepting of who you are 100 authentically and that leads to internal salvation.

Because when I lived a life of Christianity, I was not able to be who I was in my authentic self because a lot of it was condemned or labeled as sin so I was never really gonna get to a place of salvation or a place of heaven because I was never really gonna be accepted in the eyes of people who were Christians.

But when I decided to leave that box and leave Christianity, I began to feel more closer to God, more closer to everything around me, not it was not, I just had to go to church on Sunday, I had to just have this word or anything like that so my relationship, even with Jesus, even though I don't, I haven't said anything about Jesus because I don't particularly rock with Jesus like that but I don't have anything against Jesus, it's the relationship that people have and how they represent Jesus, they don't, they leave out the Christ like someone said over here but.

In other words, you know, claim, claim, claim, claim, claim, claim, claim.

Right?

It's claims all the way down. When somebody asks folks like this what their favorite soup is, they probably say claim chowder, right? All right, we've seen enough here, you know? Yeah, I don't know, it's the same thing, just, you know, I'll leave a link for the full video, you should check it out, definitely.

I do like what, I think this is called the Dr. Daf Show, I've reacted to something previous on this channel, I think they're just trying to do the thing that Jubilee does really well and I really appreciate that, you know?

We need more like this to get the conversation going and everything like that, so definitely check out the channel. Let's just focus on a couple of tips on the way out the door here, okay? First of all, this, the format of this discussion is unhelpful and so if you find yourself in something similar, do not, I repeat, do not simply start talking.

Certainly do not start explaining what your view is and how the person that you're talking to is wrong and here's 19 ways that you are and blah, blah, blah. Don't do that. And not because that's never inappropriate, you know?

It's because you need to, in today's climate, establish certain things first in order to have a productive conversation. The quickest, fastest way to get at the root or the heart of the disagreement, which would, what is it again?

The ground upon which your opponent's house stands, right? Is to gently cross-examine the claims that the person you're talking to is making because let's face it, you know? These are claims all day long.

So when you hear a claim, all you should get into the habit of doing is asking questions. Now I know this is difficult, particularly online, okay? Nevertheless, do it. And the first question that you should ask is an incredibly important one.

It's what do you mean by that, right? Basic sort of clarification question. What do you mean by that? What do you mean when you say that prayer is manifestation? You know, what do you mean when you use the word manifestation, right?

What do you mean when you say that the universe is God? What do you mean by the word God, you know? Like, what are we talking about here? Is your definition my definition, in other words, right? So that's a clarification question and you need to start bringing that into the conversation if you're not already, right?

Here's another question that's incredibly important. How did you come to that conclusion, you know? So for example, you say that the devil is a projection of judgmental people upon people like you, okay?

How did you come to that conclusion? Did you get it from reading the Bible? Like, you know, where in the Bible is it taught that the devil is a projection? You say that Jesus is not the only way to salvation, okay?

How did you come to that conclusion? Did you happen to get that from John 14, six or John 3, 17 to 18? You see what I mean? Ask the questions. And when you ask these questions, what you should be looking for in the responses is not so much the claims that they make, because again, let's face it, they got a lot of those.

You should be listening for evidence to support their claims. You should be listening for warrants to justify the claim. You know what I mean? Wait a second, Nate, what do you mean by warrant? Ah, you did it to me, right?

That's a great question to ask. A warrant in the Tolman model of argument is the explanation as to how the evidence supports the claim. This is how I would teach it to students in the classroom. It's an explanation as to how exactly the evidence supports the claim.

So in other words, what I'm suggesting that you do is you force new agers to pass their run through their conversations, right through the x-ray machine of an argument. Because what you're going to discover immediately is that they have no good evidence to support their claims.

As a matter of fact, a lot of the evidence that they do provide is either going to be pseudoscientific or it's going to be anecdotal, neither of which are objectively reliable. Or if they try to support themselves from the scripture, they quickly prove that they can't exegete it properly.

That's why I suggest that you not make speeches in these kinds of conversations. Just, you know, get it into your head. This is not your time for making opening statements or for listing out your own contentions.

That time will come. Right now, in these kinds of dynamic or these kinds of situations, it's your time to cross-examine your interlocutor. And not to do it to slam them or, you know, make them feel inferior to your intellect or whatever like that, but simply to force them to confront the consequences of their worldview and to force them to develop their arguments in support of their beliefs.

And, you know, like I said, I think you will quickly discover most of these folks, they will not be up for the challenge. And that's where you, as a Christian, can simply come alongside these people and simply say, look, I care about you, you know?

And I'm truly concerned that you have no good reason to believe what you're saying right now. And I'm concerned about that. You know, I do not wish for anyone that they would come to the end of their lives and realize that there are real spiritual consequences for choosing the wrong path, for rejecting what Jesus actually taught from the scripture.

Because Jesus doesn't allow for us to simply make up whatever we want, you know? See, that right there is a way better conversation. That's what it can look like, in my opinion. It leads to better productivity.

It leads to greater clash. And again, you know, as always, the goal is not to hurt people. It's not to mock them. It's not to make ourselves look or feel superior to them. I know in this sort of realm or space in apologetics, there are people out there in the Christian circles who are incredibly intelligent.

And so then for them quickly, it just becomes a matter of winning the argument. We are not supposed to win the argument. We're supposed to win the man. We're supposed to win the woman, right? We're winning souls.

We're not dealing with test questions on a piece of paper. Our goal, as it turns out, according to Paul, is to strike down arguments and every lofty opinion raised up against the knowledge of God. But then to lead, after that's over, to lead those same individuals who have adopted those false arguments out of the rubble of their own prisons and into the kingdom of Christ.

Amen?

That's what we need to do. That's what we need to pray for, right? Let's pray for that as a community. Let's pray for these new age ladies, you know, that they understand the truth at some point, that they know God intimately, that they go on this journey with the Lord so that they understand what he truly desires for their life.

All right, that's enough out of me. Listen, if you enjoyed the insights here, why don't you check out my Patreon community? I'm there every day doing a Bible study. There's a lot of great stuff over there, exclusive things, Q and A's, Zoom meetings one-on-one with me.

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I've partnered with the Logos Bible app, and I think it's a game changer for the student of scripture. So definitely go check it out. It's at logos .com forward slash wise disciple. If you wanna go even deeper than we just did in this video and really get into dealing with arguments and debate, you need to check out my debate masterclass.

It's live right now. At the masterclass, you're gonna learn about the fundamentals of argument and of persuasion. I'll teach you how to deconstruct arguments in real time. And for those of you who wanna get on the debate stage, I'll also give you my particular philosophy of winning.

All right?

Now this isn't just for those who are serious about debate and wanna get on stage. This is just for anybody who wants to be able to handle themselves in real conversations.

All right?

For all of this and more, definitely go check this out. It's at wise disciple .org forward slash masterclass. Hey everybody, I'm gonna return soon with more videos, but in the meantime, I'll say bye for now.