F4F | Rosebrough, Kozar and Westwood Discuss the Utter Lack of Prophetic Quality Control

Yeah, let's do our welcome to another installment of fighting for the faith. My name is Chris Roseboro.

The New Apostolic Reformation and Prophetic Accountability

I am your servant in Jesus Christ. This is the channel that compares what people are saying in the name of God to the Word of God. So we're doing another live stream and I gotta admit. We waited a little bit to do this one in order to let our anger levels go down, but I'm not convinced mine have but.

Let me explain. In fact, we have guests today. So Steven Kosar of the messed-up church and Jesse Westwood good to see you, sir. Hello. Hello. Good to see both of you. What are you doing? What are you reading over there?

I'm sorry. Was I supposed to be on a program? I was busy reading a tremendous book From Sean Bulls. He's a new prophet. He's amazing.

About a minute. Yeah, I know just like just like a total of it.

And of course, I have your I have your like your latest video, you know the thumbnail up here. Of course, it's fake so so gentlemen, I let off by talking about the fact that you know, we We wanted we talked about doing this a couple days ago and Steve you and I Talked about letting ourselves cool down a little bit.

I Gotta admit. I the more I think about this the angrier I get not the cooler I get. I am I am I am at a point where I Legitimately want to hit something not someone something. At this point I'm thinking about taking up karate or something, you know, you know, maybe joining Cobra Kai, you know, but.

The point is I got a I got a stepper thing right over there on the other side of the room, you know, right? Yeah, problem is I'm an old man, so it takes me about one minute before I'm like. But still it does help.

Yeah, and what was funny was funny is the video that you put out yesterday. You you showed some like some of the earliest footage of the fighting for the faith YouTube channel. And I still had some color in my beard back then.

I don't have any.

But.

But all that being said the thing the thing I'm angry about and it is this is that I am 100 convinced that the current crop in the leadership of the New Apostolic Reformation Charismatic Pentecostal.

I don't care what label you're gonna throw on these people that they have no fear of God whatsoever. None whatsoever and they are in absolute Defiance of clear commands of Scripture when it comes to the prophetic and they don't care.

And they don't care who they hurt. They don't care Whose lives they destroy or anything of the sort and and and the thing is is that there's people out there Who are basically saying I don't like that Roseboro guy cuz he's mean and you know and and stuff like this and I'm sitting there going Am I mean because I refuse to play along with the Pentecostal game of make-believe.

Okay, I I'm gonna I'm just gonna be blunt. I'm taking my rhetoric up to like 11 You know think a spinal tap at this point, but but it's I'm serious. It's like it Demanding that I show any kind of respect for these people who clearly are Not prophets of God.

Okay that somehow act give them some kind of professional courtesy of this as if they could potentially be a Ractual prophet of God is like demanding that I give that I say the Zay Zem Pronouns for such and such a person who's confused about their gender identity.

I refuse to live by those lies these people have never been prophets of God and Here's the thing Kozar you and I have been warning people about Sean Bowles For more than almost a decade. We've been warning people.

I think it was you came up with the name Google prophet you know, you know and It was one of the two of us because you and I were on this guy all the way back in like what? 2017 2018 at the latest and 2016 it was 2016.

Okay, so we're all we're at nine years. Okay, and when he would get up and prophesy, you know, he is there somebody the numbers three seven four six mean anything to anybody. You know and he's looking at his cell phone and and and we were pointing this stuff out almost a decade ago.

But I'm the one who's mean I you know I'm the one who is just a meanie poopy head and I'm the one this close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit there's there's something really really and I mean really wrong here and.

And I I'm I'm at this point just venting but you know Kozar take over so that I stop venting so much Save us from this.

This is why you didn't need me to do this show. I'm just gonna do what he said. But yeah, I I think There's two things that are kind of happening at the same time one is We're looking at all of this. Ridiculous evidence.

It's just a mountain of evidence that right from the beginning. Right from the very start a guy looking at his phone and he wasn't even saying things that sounded like a real prophet. He was saying things that sounded like the psychic guy, you know, does this mean anything to you is there somebody here named You know Bob Schwartz.

Does the name one seven nine fifth Avenue? Is that somebody's address? Those are all things that psychics do. Yeah, it's so obvious. And so it's it's appropriate to be angry. It really is and yet the other side of the coin is.

For some people who are so stuck in that world and they've become so familiar with it and they they've they've kind of been. You know, the the term I keep using is they they have these thought-stopping Devices have been implanted in them year after year after year.

Well, you know he's reading from his notes and yeah, you know. You you don't want to be too harsh and you know. All these things are causing people to look at the thing that's right in front of them. It's obviously fraudulent obviously faker and they just don't see it.

So There's there's two approaches one approach is to really carefully say, you know I I think it's I think it's nice that you want to give him the benefit of the doubt and I appreciate that and I appreciate your sincerity and your willingness to you know want to be nice to people and You know, maybe Sean is mistaken.

Maybe he's just blah blah blah. So that's that is an approach that some people use because those people who are basically in a thought-control organization will kind of real slowly enter in To that kind of discussion because they're not confronted with this hard truth all at once.

Which is what you and I do for us. We we and that's why I listen to you because I was looking for answers. When I was first trying to figure stuff out about the charismatic world I was looking for somebody who would just tell me the truth bluntly.

I didn't want somebody who would just go on and on and on and on and never really give me a straight answer about anything so that's been my approach to and so There are issues where there's a place for nuance.

There are issues where it's appropriate to try to be nice and to try to give somebody the benefit of the doubt as a really Good example. And I think this really ties into this whole scenario. I was texting today and yesterday with Mike winger because he loved my video and he wants to use it for His own like a reaction video.

He wants to add to it and just you know watch wants to show it to everybody and talk about what's happening on the screen. Yeah, you know when he's a very conservative very mild charismatic. And I'm really thankful that he has a voice because he's not looking at Sean Bolton going.

Well, you know, he's not that bad. He's just as angry as we are. He's just as frustrated by what's happened at Bethel and he's actually not happy at himself. That he didn't call out Bethel sooner because he's just juggling all these different things and of course there there is the issue of is it possible that if you are a Charismatic that you have a tendency to just not see some things That are kind of right there.

But because of your charismatic ism you have some sort of a bias I come from. I've used this phrase that a charismatic confirmation bias. And I think there's a there's probably a way to say that. That is as nice as you can be you know like Everybody who's in any kind of a denominational category might like like if somebody says something about Luther as a Lutheran.

I Can see where Luther might say? Well, yeah, you're wrong. I don't think Luther didn't and then if you did some research you go. Oh, yeah, Luther was really wrong in that one area. I right overreacted because he's my guy.

I think we all have a tendency to do that a bit right a man the leaders of the NAR Bill Johnson Todd white Cheyenne Patricia King Heidi Baker Daniel Kalenda Rodney Howard Brown. Let's look at dr. Randy Clark.

These people all endorsed Sean bolts. They all gave him the highest possible praise. They all platformed him. These were not minor people who you know, we're just following the leader. They were the leaders.

They are the leaders.

Yeah, yeah, and they were holding him out. They were holding his his prophecies out as like the gold standard of accurate prophecies. Yeah, you know. And and and people would say yeah, but what about bolds, you know?

Yes. Yes.

I must say that was one of the things that I would to come across all the time is the you know. What about bowls? What about bowls. Because you know how accurate they are. But and all you guys are obviously make I agree with all your points, but the thing that I I think everyone.

Like you said Steve and Lisa Chris said hey, we know it's fake. Of course, but the bigger thing and I know you guys know this as well. Is that it's not that. Of course it's fake. The big news of all of this is that especially with the text messages that John Doe leaked.

Was that not only of course, it's fake. But we know that they know it was fake and that they knew that that not just Bethel. But the Heidi Roland Baker that Cheyenne.

That.

There's a couple other ones that were mentioned in that list, but they all knew that this was fake and They didn't come out and correct and publicly admonish or say like I was Warren my. Yeah, like the thing I was harping on my videos like I'm getting messages From people that are Bethel alumni that are saying I made major life decisions like I I made major life choices off of these words and.

And to not to know that Bethel knew about this and they didn't say hey. Like we we know this guy apparently was making words and taking words that were pulled off of social media that were data mined.

You know, even the the worry of staining the integrity staining the prophetic movement. They inadvertently already did that by not doing this because the point I keep making to people is that we not that any of us really trusted any prophets to begin with.

But if you are a card-carrying charismatic and you believe in prophecy for today You now have to side-eye and have a scarlet letter on. Every single prophet that comes out of any of these houses now.

Because we now know that they are more worried their words about the prophetic movement. Than they are about correction and integrity. According to Scripture. So even if there is another false prophet another person that's you know data mining.

We we may never know who that person is because we may never know if they will ever actually correct them publicly. So we can't even trust anyone at this point. It's like yeah. Yeah, you're you're left you're left constantly wondering are there others?

We don't know because they're more concerned about the prophetic movement.

Yeah, the prophetic movement at this point and and I would note that you know when it comes to like Auto-manufacturers if they put out, you know lemons. Okay, they are required by law to to have a recall right and I would note something and this is where this is one of my big criticisms of people who are charismatics and Pentecostals and in the NAR is that they Disobey Scripture and and and that is the only way I can describe it here in first John chapter 4 verse 1.

It says beloved and and here's your this by the way do not believe in fact. Let me put this into the ESV. Hang on a second here the the do not believe Pestuita that's an imperative command in the Greek.

The command is do not believe every spirit. But here we get to the second imperative but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world. We have actual command from God the Holy Spirit unless of course the charismatics want to deny that the Holy Spirit inspired The Apostle John to write these words.

I don't know any charismatic who would say that right that the Holy Spirit has commanded. First do not believe every spirit and has commanded to test the spirits to see whether they are from God in other words Before any of these words go out you have to test to see whether or not that's actually God speaking and They are not doing that.

There is no quality control. There is no adherence to this command by the Holy Spirit and as a result of it Christ is being blasphemed and his name dragged through the mud. Because of all that, you know, the world can see these people for what they are.

You know.

They're they're very familiar with mentalists and and so-called psychics and people who perform magic tricks. And that's all these guys are doing is the same stuff. And so I think there needs to be a Comprehensive complete total recall of all prophets period.

Okay, anybody claiming to be a prophet? We need to have a complete and complete and complete and total recall and not a single word is allowed to go out until every single one of them has been Meticulously tested and their words tested before they are ever released and let's see how that goes.

Let's say let me play devil's advocate for but as the former card-carrying charismatic I guess all of us were. They they actually most most. Students Bethel students would pull this scripture here and say we do this.

And so I think this is this may be where your exegete can be helpful for people. Most charismatic to read this verse and say yeah, we do this a prophet gives us a word. We test it see if this is from God.

See if this is what we if it's affirms my beliefs or affirms where I'm at. And if it does we keep it if not, we flush it and so that that is the current policy. I mean that that's the feedback that poor Jubilee.

She's getting that same thing of like you see all the responses. Well, she should have tested the word. She should have seen and the thing I keep saying is in what world isn't some young adult. Who has someone caught their name or phone number or address and you're in a house where they're told this is the prophet of God.

Are they gonna go? Well, is that a prophet prophetic word from God? It's like no, they're gonna go. That's a prophecy from God. He called out my phone number my name. Of course, it's from God. And so they are saying they're practicing this but obviously that according the exegete they're not doing it, right.

No, they're not doing it right at all. Here's the issue there is no biblical text that says that the way you confirm a word as from a prophet as being true is by whether or Not it resonates in your heart and and and you have some kind of a spirit.

Feeling saying oh, yes that that words for me. That's Complete and utter and I'm gonna use a strong phrase bovine scatology. No text says it. Okay. Instead we are called to test it by comparing it to scripture and by using particular tests that the scripture give.

So for instance, okay, y 'all remember right before Kovat went pandemic, you know, we we were hearing about it. The the rumblings were going and then and the the number of cases was going up. But it hadn't been declared a pandemic.

Sean Bowles on on Fox News. There's an article still there. You can google it. He claimed that that God told him it would net it would not become a pandemic. Okay, this is what he said. God told him. All right, and I can say God did not say that how do I know because What his words said were not true.

And so one of the tests of scripture is it says Legitimately and like Deuteronomy 18 if a prophet says something's gonna happen and it doesn't happen. That's a word that God has not spoken. Okay, it's actually kind of that simple.

But here's the thing. There've been guys like I don't know Michael Brown running around the landscape saying well giving a false prophecy. He doesn't make you a false prophet because I know that person and I can attest to the fact that they're a good person.

How is that by the way.

Goes back to Wayne Grudem, too. Yeah Jared at Scholastic Lutherans actually did some really good work on their YouTube channel talking about his book and how bad his theology as Wayne Grudem is held up as you know, a guy that should be really taken seriously, but when you really listen to his version of prophecy.

It it's it's like you're just going in circles. It never really lands anywhere. There's no certainty to it. Basically, there's always a reason why you can you can say something is both a false prophecy.

And yet that person isn't a false prophet. Yeah there's there's no certainty to anything and I think you know, honestly if I was gonna say what's the. Perhaps the number one reason why I don't go to a charismatic church anymore and the number one reason why I don't practice Charismatic Christianity is because of the tremendous uncertainty that it provides to the Christian life.

Yeah, you never know for sure anything. But you're supposed to be getting all these new things, but you never know if that new thing is genuine or fake. Never you never know. Yeah. Yeah, and if you do know if you do know it's because.

You did all these very practical things that are unrelated to that charismatic gift. In other words, you talk to people with wisdom you you you made practical decisions about what youth. You know, like for instance somebody gives you a word that you're supposed to go and start a restaurant.

And you go well, you know as a matter of fact I've been thinking about that and I've told my friends that and I actually have 20 years experience in the food service business and my parents just died and left me inheritance so that I could buy my own restaurant.

Well, you don't really need a prophetic word to tell you that it's a good idea to start a restaurant. It's that's been going on for many many years. But if you get a word like that and you don't have any of those things in your background I think most Genuine charismatics would say well that word doesn't really seem to apply to you because it doesn't really match with what's happening in reality.

You know you you don't have any expertise in that area. You're just gonna blow all that money on a restaurant and it's gonna be a failure most likely. That's what a that's what a decent wise person would give you as advice.

So in in either one of those scenarios. What is the real cash value of the charismatic component to that story? It it doesn't really have much value. It provides less certainty so.

Right, and and the other thing is is that If you know your Bible, you know, these people are not saying words from God. I I I was just watching a video put out by, you know, the charisma magazine talking about the 2025 Word of the Lord and they had Catherine Crick on.

Okay, and and the and the guy asked Catherine Crick. So what's the Lord telling you for 2025. And I'm screaming at my Computer screen at my computer screen saying he ain't saying nothing to her.

I.

Testing Prophetic Claims Against Scripture

Want to go back to a point that you made Chris. You said how you know, all these prophets should be you know, basically removing power. Recalled we should start over. Yeah, but they don't they don't listen to us.

No, yeah, and they start with the premise that if you're not one of them then butt out. Yeah.

Go ahead.

Go ahead Jesse. Say that.

Well, so but here's the thing and this is something I've I've I have the Unique privilege of being part of all these circles still and I love being able to see a lot people thinking but you'd be surprised of how many Bethel alumni are Actually starting to get outraged on this like it's this is the this is honestly can say this is the first time Probably that I can remember where there has been a fallout of some sort of charismatic leader and There is actually a remnant of people within the alumni group that are calling for some sort of retribution.

Yeah. It's it's it's the past couple times that makes this happened. It's there's always we know don't touch the Lord's anointed. There's all these like all those typical verses that are being thrown around and you're kind of shaking your fist in the air.

But this is the first time where I'm seeing a lot of rumbling from Bethel alumni that are starting to Kind of demand something out of this and I think a big part of that is because it's just so personal like especially How Sean wasn't officially Bethel staff, but he was very closely tied to Bethel E58 was basically a basically a sister Church of Bethel.

A lot of students would go down there intern and help. But not only that Sean was kind of used as a beacon when they did the prophetic schools. He would come out a lot he was he was kind of the golden boy and so a lot of a lot of students got words from him and he was kind of the the Caliber you you strive for in the in your prophetic ministry you wanted that and so I think there's so many students that had words from him and that made life decisions based on him and Have uprooted their lives and had things happen that now they're like, well, this is personal now.

Like this is actually something where we've made life decisions off this man. Yeah, you knew there was stuff going on and even after you knew stuff was going on. You didn't even come back to tell us and the worst bit of that.

The worst the worst part is is that the people who work who were Alarming and and and like ringing the bell and trying to you know to whistleblow were people who worked for Sean Bowles. You know his personal assistant is the one who?

Contacted the Bethel and talked to Chris Vallotton and told Vallotton He was data mining Facebook for his prophecies and and he knew he knew about this not last week he knew about this years ago and said nothing.

Yeah, actually it was uh, it was 2000 I can tell you exactly because I wanted to confirm with him. I was like, hey, when were these messages sent. Just to be clear 2021. Was when it was officially the confrontation happened.

That's almost four years ago four years ago four years.

Four years sitting on this. I.

Want to I want to bring up something related that I think might it be helpful for people to consider and that is When a lot of these guys like Jeremiah Johnson Is a really good example. But they're all pretty much the same.

They make a prediction about something that they think is gonna happen in the future and a lot of them are just you know. It's a 50 -50 guess like a an election or the economy is gonna get worse or the economy is gonna get better.

It's always gonna get worse or better, you know, it's always going up and down. But in general, they're making predictions about the future and The purpose of that this is this is this is my big point here.

I feel like I've not made this point enough and I don't hear other people making it enough. What is the purpose of the the prophecy. If it comes through the Prophet built up and he gets to he gets better speaking gigs.

He sells more books. That's the purpose of the prophecy because if he if he Predicts, let's say the next election so-and-so is going to get elected and so-and-so does get elected. How does that help the church?

It does nothing it does zero for the church. It's all for the profit. So when you hear guys making predictions about the future or about anything that isn't directly related to The church or even directly related to the moral Condition of the people around him, which is this is what prophets do in the Bible.

Prophets are talking about God to bring people back from their sinfulness to bring them back from their from their. They're they're fighting against God. They're they're in Rebellion Rebellion back to the wall like the cold.

Yeah. Yeah say you're in you're in danger. You're you're fighting against God and I'm warning you there's none of that in these prophecies. These prophecies are like cheap parlor tricks and sometimes they come true and sometimes they don't and even when they do come true.

What is the ultimate purpose? It makes the profit more money. That's all it's about right? Well, and I would.

Go ahead Chris.

I would note that the prophets of the Old Testament were the prosecuting attorneys of God's covenant and And they they they did not engage in fortune-telling okay, in fact that I would note that the the the quality of prophecies that we're getting nowadays is is just about just about as dumb as it gets it's it's really cheap tawdry Fortune-telling and everything is designed to be as vague as humanly possible.

By the way real quick. We had I I Put this on the screen here Paul Blaise Talked about resonate in the heart. Is that like the burning in the bosom? The answer is yes. Okay, you ask a Mormon. How do you know the Mormon the Book of Mormon is true?

Well, I prayed about the Book of Mormon and and God gave me a burning in my bosom telling me that it's true I I years ago The Mormon missionaries come to my door and they gave me a Book of Mormon told me to read it.

I said I would they came back a few months later. And the first question they asked me was like, all right. So did you read the Book of Mormon? Yeah, I did. Well, how did it make you feel and they said I said funny that you would ask because every time I would open the book I would feel like the temperature in the room would like go down like eight or ten degrees it would be a chill in the air and I I felt the presence of pure evil and One of the Mormon missionaries said to me says you're not reading it, right, you know.

My.

My point was your subjective feeling and my subjective feeling cancel each other out. We'll have to we'll have to look at the objective facts.

Prophetic Standards and the Abuse of Scripture

Regarding and and and I think Chris. Do you want to pull up. Because I think this is dovetails perfectly into it the the statement that was brought out. Because I I read through it while we were waiting in the lobby and in the statement.

So you guys are making perfect points to this because you're talking about what prophecy is used for and what prophecy is and I'm just uh, I hate being put on the.

This is gonna be like like my first reading of this bulls ministry. Just put this out.

Yeah, they did they did and so and I I I hate that I keep playing.

There's gotta be a better word for it.

But I keep playing devil's advocate for the charismatic because I think I keep thinking I hear every time you guys make argument I have like my old brain path going. Oh, but this and so like sure and you guys, you know, when you say Chris Hey, well, they all the the prophets of the Old Testament were the prosecuting attorneys for God.

The argument that you hear mostly from the charismatic movement is saying well prophecy isn't meant for that today.

That prophecy is meant to be encouraging and edifying and they'll pull some passes. Why mention that biblical text says that Prophecies are supposed to be encouraging right and this is so this is the framework they use.

Here's the issue the whole framework is based upon assumptions that are not biblical. That that's the problem is that you know, you guys remember the the movie Raiders of the Lost Ark, you know. And you know, we had that stupid medallion with a little crystal in the thing and they try and the Nazis try to reproduce it but they got they got it wrong and they were and India Indiana Jones's buddy says they're digging in the wrong place.

Oh, right. Okay the issue with the charismatics is is that they are ignoring the actual biblical texts and That tell us what the tests are. They've created their own framework with tests that are not even in the biblical text at all.

Right, and the whole thing the assumptions are 100 wrong. They're the whole thing that they've set up is geared to do nothing but Create more and more and more delusional words. All claiming to be from God.

You know, you know, whereas you listen You don't dare speak a word. Claiming it's from God if it's not these people have no fear of God and I would note this also comes down to just a basic lack of understanding of something as simple as the Ten Commandments.

Here's what I mean in Exodus chapter 20, you know the place where we get the Ten Commandments, right? Well the Ten Commandments actually there's one that Everybody recognizes is one of the Ten Commandments.

You shall not take the name of Yahweh your God in vain for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. Here's the thing if the charismatics would actually just apply themselves to a cursory understanding of this commandment 99 of the problem would go away okay, because This text is legit.

It's not talking about some girl in the valley and you know in the 1980s going OMG. Okay. Yeah that that's not actually what's in mind here it's it's the the the Hebrew words are do not carry the name of Yahweh your God into vanity or emptiness or Worthlessness the Hebrew word shah here Legitimately has as one of its meanings false prophecy.

Okay, emptiness of speech false prophecy. Okay, so the idea here is I'm gonna know I have yet to run into a single charismatic who says the commandment that says you shall not commit adultery. Does not apply today.

I have never run into a single charismatic that would say that but But I would note this I haven't yet to find an actual charismatic who believes these yahoos are actual prophecy God who understands that this commandment taking God's name in vain is Worse than adultery Worse and so much so that God threatens to not hold that person guiltless.

In other words I ain't gonna forgive you for this. Yeah, it's not that it's an unforgivable sin, but the person who keeps going down this road. They are risking their eternal salvation.

Well, I.

Got a text yesterday from my friend James Isaacs who was for many years. He was a musician involved with the vineyard and He's furious and he still considers himself a charismatic although he's like a Lutheran charismatic, which I know you're not supposed to do.

But whatever it's a great guy. This is what he texted me. He said You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. Faking prophecies is taking the Lord's name in vain.

Period. Mmm. There we go.

So so.

Like.

When I first. Just a quick little because puns run in my head. When you put a Lutheran and a charismatic together together. You get a lunatic I think is the way it works.

I.

Just I hear charismatic and Lutheran I just hear yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, I When you were doing your teaching on on the on the Lord's name in vain, that's when I first thought about well I'm taught to practice prophecy.

Like how do I how do I rectify practicing prophecy, right? Yeah, and taking risks first. Right and my first thought was well shoot if this that was one of the first kind of chips in my theology. When I was thinking about come back to being a Christian again, and I was leaving atheism I was trying to rectify the idea of prophecy this that was one of the things where I'm like, well if I practice prophecy I'm sinning so that that that thing I mentioned in one of my videos were you know practicing Prophecy to become a better prophet.

It's like practicing adultery to become a better husband. It just it just doesn't work. It just doesn't work there. You can't you can't square that. It just doesn't work, right? Yeah, and then I would the other thing I would say is I forgot to mention you're saying with the verse the verse that most People use Chris for that and I would love to hear you take on this is might clarify something for people.

That most people will say that prophecy is just for encouraging the argument will be is that well New Covenant prophecy is for encouraging exhortation and The one that you know, they would go to is 1st Corinthians 14 3.

That's what they would say. They'll say well, that's that's how it's supposed to be used new new New Testament prophecy New Covenant prophecy is for encouragement exhortation and once I'm pretty sure it's 1st Corinthians 14 3 I could be wrong.